Defensive Shooting vs. Competitive Shooting

[sirveyr]

I started my competitive shooting "career" ( ) with IDPA. My thoughts were that I would use it to "sharpen my defensive pistol skills", but the more involved that I became in the competitive shooting sports, my focus obviously turned to the "game of shooting". I completely stopped training with my daily carry guns and my entire mindset changed.

I still train with my carry guns, but much less than I used to. I think that I'm going to spend this winter getting back to the defensive side of shooting. I've always done what I consider "defensive dry firing" and "defensive live fire" training, but for the last few years I've just put most of the emphasis on IDPA/USPSA style shooting.

How much time do you guys devote to your "defensive" training?

Do you guys ever devote certain training sessions to defensive vs. competitive training?

[Micah]

A few years ago I purchased my first handgun and joined an indoor range to familiarize myself with my pistol...which a few weeks later obtained my CCW. A man named Bill Seevers (bseevers) invited me to participate in their competition league that shot every Tuesday. That began my lust for USPSA.

I feel that training for USPSA/IDPA is the best type of training for a defensive situation. Splits, transitions, movement...it has been said before that strong C shooters and above have a significant understanding of the mechanics of shooting over millions of others. Train for the sport, and you will be ready for the worst case scenario.

[atbarr]

Train for the sport, and you will be ready for the worst case scenario.

That says it all.

A.T.

[Duane Thomas]

Let's bear in mind that this is a forum about competition shooting. As the Forum Guidelines state:

Intent

This Forum is for firearm, technique, and conceptual discussions pertaining to training and competition. (And various unrelated topics.) While the occasional defensive shooting post is not prohibited, in general, defensive shooting discussions or debates are discouraged.

Having said that, and with absolutely no intention - or tolerance - for this becoming a "martial artist vs. gamesman" discussion, I offer the following link:

http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_training/gunfight_060606/

[Darianis]

While I don't think that our sport is the end-all of firearms training I thing it is a very solid componet. I read an exelent peice on Michial Bane's blog about this very issue. His point(which I totally agree with) was that our sport won't teach you tatics, but it will teach you gun handling, stressfire and other vital skills.

Don't think for a second that USPSA is defencive shooting. It's not but it is a good basis for shooting skills as a whole. If you carry a gun you need to have more skills than the USPSA can provide alone.

[CHA-LEE]

Put it in perspective. Do you think a track star would "Train" differently for a real live situation where he would have to rely on running to save his life? Or would he just leverage the thousands of training hours and burned in skills of running take control when the situation arises that he does have to run to save his life?

I don't know about anyone else, but I would 100% rely on my USPSA or IDPA "Game Shooting" skills to save my life in a real life shooting situation. Seriously, how many people that carry daily will actually end up firing their weapon to protect themselves or others during their life time? That is a very, very, very small number. Given the very uncommon likelihood of being in situation where shots are fired in public much less you being the one shooting, I don't see why people worry so much about this.

I also find it funny that the vast majority of the time the same guys that continually "Train" for these real life shoot out situations, that will likely never happen, are the same guys that could care less about their personal health. They would do themselves a lot more good if they put the same effort into the health. Manage their weight, diet, stop smoking, etc. These are the real killers of us, not some Miami Vice shoot out that you are some how going to be mixed up in on a regular basis.

On that note, I will reaffirm that my USPSA "Game Shooting” skills will just have to manage when or if I am ever involved in a gun battle as a regular Joe Blow citizen of the USA. Now if I was in Law Enforcement or the Military that might be a different story. But I still think that the skills of a proficient USPSA or IDPA shooter are more than enough to handle most real life shooting situations you might encounter in public.

[Loves2Shoot]

Shooting is shooting and I don't think their is such a things a defensive shooting, as shooting is proactive and offensive by it's nature. Labeling it defensive shooting or competition shooting only has value for those labeling/selling it.

If you want to learn to shoot better, go join the best shooters in your area. If you want to learn how to defend yourself, go to the gym and learn how to accept pain and bleeding. I got tired of pain and bleeding, so I took up shooting. It is much more fun.

I think Brian Enos' has a great saying that addresses the the heart of your dilemma, maku mozu "Do not be deluded."

[JimmyZip]

The only person I know who has personally used a firearm to defend himself as well as in an offensive manner was the same person who got me started in this as a kid. He seemed to think then and does now, that this sport was a good tool to teaching solid gun handling. While I strayed from the sport for years, it was my desire to once again hone my GUN HANDLING SKILLS that brought me back to this sport.

If you get stressed by competition, you will learn to manage your skills under that stress.

If you get frustrated learning to improve, you will learn (hopefully) to endure that frustration and work through it.

If you have trouble managing your time to get out and practice or dryfire, if you so desire, you will learn to do that also.

If you care about your club and its matches, you will (again, hopefully) participate and volunteer as much as possible to ensure things go smoothly. This can mean just doing your part pasting and tearing down at the end of the day which I am told time and again thank you for doing.

So while I think, yes this sport does impart certain skills that will help in a defensive situation, it is the other things that might help you should you survive that encounter. Having good friends that you could ask a favor of or who could ask one of you is a priceless benefit of going and participating on a regular basis.

Knowing that you are capable of using a weapon with certainty, clarity, instinctively, and with confidence is something people pay high dollar for, and what military and police trainers attempt to impart on their trainees. Yet for a lot less initial investment you and others can attain this goal, and that , to me anyway, would be the best preparation you can get.

Just my $5.00

The Zipper

[BillGarlandJr]

I agree with Loves2Shoot...shooting is shooting whether it be in an competitive atmosphere or in a defensive type situation. As the shooter you have to identify the target, line the sights up on the target, and keep them there till the shot it fired....that doesn't change whether you are shooting at a cardboard target or a badguy. As a police officer, what changes for me between a competitive environment vs. a defensive one is my mind set. In a match I'm looking for the fastest way to complete a stage, and things like cover, concealment, and tactics aren't a major concern...because I'm at a match. When I'm on duty and I'm walking towards a hot call my mindset is such that as I approach I'm thinking of ways to keep my ass from getting shot, and in so doing I'm looking for objects that could be used as cover, and I'm thinking of ways to use them to my advantage should they be needed.

So, with all that being said, as far as shooting goes the bulk of my shooting training is competition orriented. The skills a person can learn through shooting IPSC are the same skills that will serve them very well should they ever need to defend themselves with a firearm. The guy who is a good IPSC shooter and finds himself in a self defense type situation where he may need to use a firearm, and thinks to find and use cover is much better off than the guy who thinks to find and use cover but lacks the shooting skills to end the fight.

[SA Friday]

On that note, I will reaffirm that my USPSA "Game Shooting” skills will just have to manage when or if I am ever involved in a gun battle as a regular Joe Blow citizen of the USA. Now if I was in Law Enforcement or the Military that might be a different story. But I still think that the skills of a proficient USPSA or IDPA shooter are more than enough to handle most real life shooting situations you might encounter in public.

LE and Military shooting is no different than any other shooting. It's a core skill. You can't hit paper, you can't hit other things either. Solidifying skills to where they are automatic and reaction vs conscious thought are the result of constant dedicated training. Regardless of the mutation of shooting sports over time, they all still build core skills, they all solidify reaction through training/sporting events. In many respects I would suggest that the mutation of sports shooting has expanded and redefined shooting core skills immensely. Ultimately, there really is no tactical vs sports shooting as skill applies. Now the purpose of tactical shooting vs sports shooting are very different, and should not be misconscrued as the same.

[Jman]

Pass

Jim

[bkeeler]

None.

No.

BK

[sirveyr]

Duane,

I'm aware that this is "Competitive" shooting forum. I did not intend to make this a "martial artist vs. gamesman" debate.

What changes for me between a competitive environment vs. a defensive one is my mind set.

I guess this is what I was getting at. For example, I've noticed that when I shoot blind stages, I think that I sub-consciously approach them differently. I actually use cover!

Shooting is shooting and I don't think their is such a things a defensive shooting, as shooting is proactive and offensive by it's nature. Labeling it defensive shooting or competition shooting only has value for those labeling/selling it.

I agree totally!

90% of my training is for competition, dry-fire or otherwise. There are certain things that I do differently when training with my carry guns. Retention shooting, shooting from the ground, six rounds while getting "off the X" quickly, nothing further than 3 yards, actually digging my gun out of my IWB holster from under my shirts instead of clicking it from the Kydex, that's all.

[Graham Smith]

In my opinion, there has been way too much being made of this by people who have a point to make or ax to grind. Anything that gets me out on the range shooting can't be all that bad. I try and spend at least one weekend a year at a defensive pistol course that's a 6 hr drive for me. It starts easy and get progressively more difficult. The easy part lets me push myself on speed and the hard stuff makes me push myself on accuracy and I never fail to pickup some tips from the instructors and other shooters.

My defensive pistol training has made me a better competitor and my competition has made me a better defensive pistol shooter. Synergy is the name of this game.

[Allgoodhits]

Train for the sport, and you will be ready for the worst case scenario.

That says it all.

A.T.

DQ in the SPORT, shoot another day.

DQ in real world is permanent.

Training for the sport will make you more prepared, but not necessarily prepared for the worst case scenario. In SPORT we have fixed variables, in the real world the variables vary too, i.e. there are your movements and the target with a brain has movement in any direction or manner it chooses, instead of just up or down, side to side etc. Oh and some times two "A" or -0 hits don't do the trick, and sometimes the non-threats turn on you.

MJ

....former cop

[sirveyr]

I feel this topic starting to go sideways ...

I hate it when my threads get closed!

[Ron Ankeny]

In my opinion, there has been way too much being made of this by people who have a point to make or ax to grind.

Yup.

[badchad]

I recently started shooting one IDPA match a month where I use my carry IWB holster, shoot my carry glock 23 instead of my 35, and conceal it under a t-shirt rather than a 5.11 vest. I try to be as real life and non-gamey as possible. I still try to win though. After shooting USPSA for the past year I was pleasantly surprised how well I shoot my compact glock. I don't do much different practice for it though, and so far have to wing my retention reloads.

[Flexmoney]

I feel this topic starting to go sideways ...

I hate it when my threads get closed!

Don't feel too bad when it happens. These threads go south pretty quick on other forums (that have defensive shooting areas) too.

You should practice whatever you need work on. Nothing wrong with that. Stay sharp.

[Matt Griffin]

FWIW (very little coming from me) I can't see that there's a difference once the gun comes out with intent to shoot. Shooting is shooting. I imagine there's a WORLD of training that can be applied before that point happens, though.

H.

[Shay1911]

We are a USPSA club and we are dedicating one of our weekly matches to carry guns only.

[RV man]

Here I go bragging about my son. He called me from Iraq and told me he is ok. HUH? Seems he was posted by an armored vehicle when he was hit by splatter from incoming rounds. He dove under the vehicle and returned fire. All the Americans returned to base. My IDPA club started carbine matches after my son joined the Air Force even though running a carbine is not his job. Because of the game, he learned to operate his "sporting firearm" well and get in and out of shooting positions rapidly. I love to poke holes in cardboard and for me it is just a game, but if the game helps my son come home then it is a truly worthwhile game.

Just my thought.

Bill

[VegasOPM]

In order to deflect the dangerous aspect of this thread, I will liken this debate to driving on icy roads. Who is going to be better at regaining control of a car on an icy road, a trained race car driver or a run of the mill driver. The perfect practice would be to drive extensively on icy roads and lose control as much as possible. The more often you do it (and survive) the better prepared you would be. The stakes to that sort of practice seem to be a bit rich for my blood. The other option would be to get training on how to drive under varying conditions, and then put that knowledge to the test under more controlled circumstances- such as on a race track. After several races, vehicle control will become ingrained almost to the point of subconscious. The conscious mind can devote itself to race strategy and collision avoidance. While a racer may not know the exact road conditions on the icy road on that day, they are going to understand how a vehicle acts at the ragged edge of traction. They will be able to look for a safe exit, and rely on their experience, training, reflexes and muscle memory to deal with vehicle control.

[mike cyrwus]

that IPSC stuff will get you killed on the street..

[Catfish]

A draw is a draw.

A sight picture is a sight picture.

Pulling the trigger is pulling the trigger.

Reloading is reloading.

Moving and shooting is moving and shooting.