Iroc Style Match

[Bear1142]

I thought about this type of a match a couple of years ago. What do you think of Nationals level match that pits the best in each class and gives them all the same equipment to determine who the is best shooter? It would need some strong support from the industry, But I'm thinking of a format like this. You take the top 10 shooters from each class based on overall finish from the Limited Nationals, Overall, 60 shooters. You get a manufacturer like Glock, Kimber, Springfield, etc.. to put up 15 identical guns. You give the competitors 150 rounds to zero the sights for themselves and a little bit of functioning and familiarity. A holster company like Blade-tech, safariland, CR speed, etc.., provides identical holsters and mag pouches. An ammo company puts up the same ammunition for everyone. You could run 15 people through a 20 stage match in one day easily. Since you'd only have one or two squads you'd only need 4 or 5 RO squads, they could travel to each stage with the competitor squad. There would only be 1 or 2 squads running at a time, so it would be easy for specatators to follow super squads and watch all the fireworks. Make it a big festival type event. A bunch of manufacturers, Maybe some entertainers, Fireworks in the evening, Carnival type games, Introduction to IPCS classes, The big shooters could put on teaching classes, etc.. At the end, The overall shooter is crowned the best shooter in the world and each class winner gets to keep the exact pistol he used, plus other cash and prizes, or whatever you want it to be. The other pistols could be raffled off to the crowd. A spectator could end up winning a pistol used by one to the top dogs. It would come with a certificate as being used in the competition and by whom, with each persons signature on the certificate. Part of the proceeds of the raffle could be used to reduce the costs to the manufactures who provided the equipment. I know it needs some work, but what about the concept?

Erik

[B.J. Norris]

Sounds Off the Hook. I'll vote for it.

[cpty1]

Sounds like a cool idea. Erik gets my vote for USPSA PR Coordinator.

[TDean]

Cool idea.

Ensuring no one messes with the parts would be interesting. How do we know Billy-Bob didn't install a Tungsten guide rod when he was in the porta-potty?

How does NASCAR do that?

[BigDave]

In auto racing, usually the top three finishers (maybe top 5 depending), go through a tech inspection. I know at the Purdue University Grand Prix when I was in school, the top three finishers had heads pulled to check displacement, the carts were weighed. Any illegal stuff, outa there. Anyway, pretty involved.

Erik - Awesome idea. Would there be any problems with the sponsorship thing with folks like TJ and TGO? I could easily see either Para, SA, Kimber or Glock poneying up the guns and having one smith go through and "clean em up". There would have to be a double-blind type system so that the manufacturer or the smithy wouldn't be able to tell which gun would go to whom. Same with ammo. What would be even cooler is to raffle the guns off as door prizes afterwords.

[Loves2Shoot]

I think it would be a fun match, but then again I think most all matches are fun. I don't think equiptment makes much of a difference though, as many people seems to think it does, as long as it is accurate and works every time.

The big problem I would see is that if a gun had a malfunction, what do you do? Do you give the shooter a reshoot or just say they got the lemon?

[Bear1142]

As far as people messing with the guns, you have to rely on a certain level of integrity. While I'm sure there are some people of questionable integrity on our sport, I don't think it would be an issue. If someone were caught, can you imagine American Shooter putting on National TV that so and so was disqualified for making illegal changes to his firearm to gain a competitive advantage (cheating). I don't think it would happen.

As far as major sponsored shooters, I would think the factories would jump at the chance to be the firearms donor. Can you imagine the publicity for Para or Springfield or Glock if there factory shooter won a best of the best match with their gun.

As far as gunsmiths cleaning them up, Nope. Thats what the initial 150 rounds for each competitor is, a break-in, sight-in, warm-up. If the gun jams, Oh well, clear it and move on. Engines in IROC races break, they don't give them a new car and start the race over. Now if the gun breaks or had chronic problems, I think it would be fair to provide a new pistol and give them a re-shoot. I would define chronic problems as more than 3 jams on one stage.

As far as ammunition goes, the first 150 is for the previously stated purpose. All the rest of the ammo would be distributed at the individual stage, so nobody could substitute different ammo.

As far as pistol selection, you'd just walk up and pull one off the table. No inspecting for feel or trigger pull. You touch it, its yours.

We would raffle off the guns, but you'd have to buy tickets for the raffle. This would help defray some of costs. There are a couple of other problems, but I think we could work them out.

[shred]

Or you could keep all the pistols in a big box. Before the stage, you reach in and pull one out. After the stage, you put it back. Mix 'em around between stages.

[John Dunn]

Have one gun at each stage, everyone shoots the exact same gun.

[jhgtyre]

Have the one gun stage setup for people to "try IPSC out." Make it simple, little or no movement, etc.... It would be fun for some of the spectators. You could have it run like a class with participants signing up for a basic course and then taking turns running the stage.

-ld

[Singlestack]

Might as well have all the Divisions represented. Open stage, Limited stage, etc...

I wanna play.

[kimel]

What an awesome idea!

Don't forget to have each competitor include a signed certificate that they used this gun during the 2004 IMOC (Intl Match of Champions...use IROC and you will get to meet the NASCAR lawyers). This would make the value of each gun a bit higher and it would be pretty cool to own one of those.

The major auto manufacturers don't have any problem with their sponsored driver hopping into the IROC cars that they didn't build and I doubt that the sponsored shooters would be similarly handicapped. They could still wear all their logo gear.

I think 20 stages in a day is a bit much. We don't want to push these folks to exhaustion. They won't be happy and won't come back. Plus, there is some seriously interesting psychological stuff that comes into play on a multi-day match. Lots of things happen when you have a night to sleep on it. Ask our host about what happens at night during a match (match related stuff....not the extracurricular activities).

Run this as a Friday/Saturday match with a Sunday Man-on-Man Steel event. Man-On-Man is easy to set up for spectators and is loads and loads of fun. Split Screen for the TV and off you go.

Do it in conjunction with the SHOT show or the NRA show for a year or two to build up attendance, maybe.

Someone aught to pitch this at Michael Bane.

[rhino]

. . . with a Sunday Man-on-Man Steel event. Man-On-Man is easy to set up for spectators and is loads and loads of fun. Split Screen for the TV and off you go.

I think this would be even cooler if for each matchup, each shooter was assigned a different gun by random. Then have them shoot round robin instead of single elim!

[Flexmoney]

Springfield has been doing something like this with the XD. They provide the guns and, I think, PMC provides the all the ammo. Of course, this is more of a marketing thing for them.

I like the idea of making it an IROC...with the big-dogs.

And, maybe a few/bunch of gun makers could play. Springfield on one stage, Kimber on another, Glock on a stage, Para...etc.?

[Bear1142]

The problem I see with having a single gun on each stage, or different style guns on each stage is zeroing and equipment. The idea is to standardize as much of the equipment as possible in order to really isolate pure shooting ability. If you don't have some time to zero the gun for each shooter, then not shooting a zeroed gun becomes a pretty big issue. I personally shoot every Glock I touch to the left and have to adjust the sights. Just something about the way I hold the Glock and the way I pull the trigger. Providing the same gun with some time to zero for each individual solves this problem. Equipment also becomes an issue. It would be difficult to find one holster/mag pouch combination that would work with so many different makes and models. I think the variety would come by shooting different guns each year. A Glock one year, then Beretta, Springfield, Kimber (etc..) I would announce which manufacturer is providing the pistol, but I would not annouce which model or caliber until the day of the match, to prevent people from buying the set-up ahead of time and practicing. While this wouldn't help a whole lot with a Glock, it will still prevent some people from getting too dialed in. Can you imagine practicing with your 9mm Glock 17 and then showing up and get handed a .357 sig Glock 32? I think it would definitely throw off your timing. I also don't think you'd need a L-10 class, unless the AWB expires, you be getting 10 rd. mags by default regardless of manufacturer.

I'm not sure this type of match is possible with open guns. Open guns cost considerably more than a limited/factory gun and would probably be cost prohibitive when figuring match expenses. The only two real manufacturers are SV and STI. They are prone to jamming at a higher rate, which would increase the number of reshoots, and it would eliminate the ammunition sponsors from consideration. Besides, I have always thought the true test of shooting ability is iron-sighted guns. An open gun, while fun, allows technology to compensate for sloppy technique (To a degree).

The purpose of doing the match in one day, is to rotate the pistols. If you have 60 shooters, and only 15 pistols, you need 2-3 days to shoot the match. Besides, I think the endurance factor is a huge part of the match. How long can you keep it together? How long can you keep you mental focus and concentration. The pressure of competing with the other top 9 guys in the country, going stage to stage, knowing exactly where you are and how far ahead or behind you are. Having to shoot 20 some stages in one day. No time off, no waiting for another squad to clear a stage. You could shoot a stage and have 10 minutes before your shooting again. No down time, just clear you mind, focus, and go again, and all this with a pistol you just picked up an hour ago.

I think a final added bonus of the match is it could be used to help clear out sandbaggers. I think if you win the class and you shoot 5% about YOUR individual average, you automatically get bumped (except to GM class). Never mind what you're classified as, 5% over and here comes that next class.

[Sterling White]

Sandbaggers.....who??

Sights are usually over-rated when your outta control at mach five with your hair on fire.

So lets think about this; all the guns are zero'd at 15 yds, targets would be pretty much wide open, steel would be manageable, and the stage design would provide right/left hand neutrallity.

What are the problems....hmmm....holsters/mag pouches, limiting this to only the top 10-20 per class when others may want to play, logisitics, timing and coordination.

How much do manufacturer's pay for a new handgun review and where are these reviews published? Magazine publications for the pistolero's. Hmmm... ....could this be an untapped market that could provide an event? In the marketting world its called getting your two birds....a rating of the manufacturer equipement plus an answer of who is the "best-of-the-best" for the year.

Possible solutions.....endless.....a match being held....priceless!

[Patrick Sweeney]

Some friends and I kicked this idea around 15 years ago or so, and also came up with a few other ideas to go with it.

Limit it to an invitational. The top 100 shooters or so, from various applicable disciplines. The guns issued are the prizes, along with the bragging rights.

The top ten finishers get an automatic entry to the next years match, everyone else has to qualify. Finish results in IDPA, USPSA, Steel Challenge, Masters, etc used to select the other 90. The hard part is coming up with software to rank shooters.

Manufacturers bid on the match, and provide suitable pistols. (No Raven Super Nationals, thank you.)

The winning manufacturer then can sell a spiffed-up version of the model as the "2005 Super Nationals" pistol like the Indy Pace Car model each year.

Ditto the ammo.

Ideally, camera-friendly stages and quick and easy scoring so the viewers know who's winning and by how much, and how much the next guy has to shoot to catch him.