Buying gear ... before it disappears

[John Tuley]

Hello all,

I'm interested in starting 3-Gun, though not right now. (I'm working on a PhD in math, so I have very little free time. In fact, I shouldn't even be here ...) However, recent events have lit a bit of a fire under my butt regarding the purchase of equipment before it (possibly) becomes difficult to find --- either as a result of legislation or the current runs on the market.

Just to give a little more idea of what I want: I'm looking to eventually play in tactical/limited divisions. I live in Colorado, and would try to shoot the Rocky Mountain matches, which (if I'm reading websites correctly) means some long shots. I have never owned a semi rifle or any shotgun, just several pistols and some bolt-action rifles. I've already contacted Benny Hill about the possibility of building a rifle, but I wanted to ask a slightly different question here. (Sorry for all the leadup, but here it comes ...)

Assuming a limited budget (grad student again!) but an unwillingness to buy "cheap" gear, only to wish I hadn't later, what would be the best plan to make sure I still can get what I need? For instance, plan A might be to scrimp and save for the several months that it would take me to come up with $1500-2000 and just send it in one lump sum to a 'smith. Plan B perhaps would be to buy parts as I go (an upper here, lower there, etc.) and send a box of parts (and another box of cash) to the 'smith. (I realize that AR's are like "adult Lego," but I have no experience building them and don't want to screw up on gun number one).

I don't want this to be political in any way. Just run with the "if you have to have it soon but can't afford it now" theme.

Thanks!

-- John.

[D.Hayden]

Just buy a couple DPMS lowers now, and magazines.. the rest you can get later...

[Stuck in C]

There's a couple of ways to go. Instead of having a smith build a rifle, get a stock rifle from a semi-custom builder. The JP-15 from JP Enterprises comes to mind (their CTR is great but probably out of your price range). You might have to wait a while-everybody is way behind. The other thing you could do is buy a complete basic flattop rifle from one of the big boys (DPMS, Olympic, Bushmaster, S&W etc.) ASAP from a gun store. They're selling out fast but there are still a lot out there. You can shoot it now, learn what you will eventually want to change, and customize as you go. Some things you can change yourself such as stocks, grip, etc. Or even buy a complete custom upper for it later on. But, you now have a lower bought when it was legal that you can build on. It will be more expensive this way but at least you have a rifle and you can spread the cost out.

[John Tuley]

So it's lowers and mags that I should worry about, not uppers? That's good to know, thanks; even if I still end up having it built, I can mail in the lower and whatever else I stock up on.

I have four Pmags on the way from Shooter's Connection right now (all I could afford at the moment without the wife sending up red flags). I plan on acquiring another dozen or more as and when I can. I agree about not being too worried about grips etc. Just mags and major parts; now I know that it's only the lowers that will be trouble.

Thanks for the input!

-- John.

[J-Ho]

Just buy a couple DPMS lowers now, and magazines.. the rest you can get later...

let's hope so.

[JThompson]

Careful guys...

I plan on getting a few lowers and some mags... I don't have any longs at the moment.

[GentlemanJim]

Just avoid the folks that have raised prices...not the people to deal with anyway

Lots of stuff is on backorder at several major houses, but we have seen this before...it comes back around.

I have to think back to Y2K one day you could not buy a generator for any price....a few days later you could not give one away.

This whole thing should pass with a little time...and the lower receiver is the only part that could pose a problem in the future.

Jim

[J-Ho]

and the lower receiver is the only part that could pose a problem in the future.

Jim

Jim, let's hope that is all that could pose a problem. If a magazine can be regulated, why not a barrel? or even possesion of certain products? I hate looking for the worst, but who knows what will happen?

That's the worst case scenario. My bet is buying lowers and magazines will probably be enough.

[Anon]

I'm not as much of a sky-is-falling guy as some people.

People treat the recent election results like we will somehow be handed the old AWB rules in short order.

We won't. We will either be safe from that sort of thing, or we'll get something much worse (and expensive). No chance we would get the same rules, with the same grandfathering/workarounds/exclusions.

That said, I'd spend my money on a lower and some magazines, also. Not too expensive, and no matter how things go, you will either need them for your build, or not be out too much $.

Edited November 9, 2008 by Anon

[shred]

Basically anybody that didn't buy 3+ months ago is already behind the curve WRT availability and cost. I'd wait a little for the panic-buying to settle down, but it's going to be a while before the inventory situation clears up.

[John Tuley]

As was pointed out, I want an AR regardless of whether the sky is about to fall. But being the paranoid-ish pessimist that I am, I'm trying to cover my ass.

Again, this was not meant to be political. Discussion of whether the AWB will come back, or in what form, is (while relevant) not the point of this thread. Mostly just looking for advice on how to spread out the cost of the purchase, and get first the parts that are likely to be controlled in the case of weird legislation.

I realize that this is in the "rifle" forum, but is anyone willing to make a comment about shotguns? Those you don't buy in pieces, correct? How much should I expect to pay for a (decent, but not over-the-top) race gun?

Thanks,

-- John.

[norbs007]

Just buy a couple DPMS lowers now, and magazines.. the rest you can get later...

Bingo!

I'll start looking around now, nobody really know what lies ahead. For better or worse, I'd rather have a lower and some magazines right now.

[JThompson]

The post this one referred to has been removed. Please keep the politics out of the thread so we can discuss our options without thread closure.

Edited November 10, 2008 by JThompson

[Merlin Orr]

I am with the buy an AR lower and some AR mags now and..IMO..the rest can come later.

You can definitly be a cost consious shooter and avoid spending some..but know this...It ain't a cheap thing to shoot 3 Gun.

Maybe 3 grand for a decent cheapie set up.

Around 8 grand for 3 guns from a good 3 gun shop. (STI - Benelli - Nice AR)

More if you want the really high end stuff...

yea, there are ways to cut corners but you did say quality....

[Nik Habicht]

I'll have to argue a little with Merlin:

I think if someone beats my Glock ($~400 used) with an STI it's because they practice more....

I think if someone beats my Remington 1100 ($~300 used plus about $400 for a new barrel, sights, EZ loader, side saddles, big button safety, mag tube extensions and follower) with their spaghetti slinger it's because they practiced more. My Remmy took a while to get running because I did the EZ Loader install myself and I'm not a gunsmith or that handy with mechanical things. Once I got it to run though --- I resisted all urges to tinker with it, and voila, a reliable 1100 was born.....

Rifle -- I started with a stock Bushmaster and can honestly say that I bought an improvement in my rifle scores by getting JP to install their trigger in the lower, buying one of their uppers, and a Trijicon ACOG. That's the expensive piece of kit --- replacing my ACOG alone at retail now would cost near what I have in the Glock and the 1100...

The rifle will eventually be a ~ $3000-4000 proposition by the time you factor in optics, magazines, cases, accessories, spare parts and tools.....

[davidwiz]

FYI - Based on the language of the old AW ban, the gun had to be configured as an ugly gun prior to the enactment of the law for it to be grandfathered. If by chance a new law is enacted with similar language, just having a lower won't qualify it for grandfathering.

[EkuJustice]

Technically once you put an upper on it it is a complete rifle even if you take it right back off. Just like if you have a lower put a stock on it then 10 min later decide to go the pistol route it would legally then have to be an sbr since there was a stock on it. Stripped lower, parts kit for lower and borrow an upper to slap on it and then take it off and its a complete rifle

[jobob]

Technically once you put an upper on it it is a complete rifle even if you take it right back off. Just like if you have a lower put a stock on it then 10 min later decide to go the pistol route it would legally then have to be an sbr since there was a stock on it. Stripped lower, parts kit for lower and borrow an upper to slap on it and then take it off and its a complete rifle

From my understanding, unless a lower was manufactured as a PISTOL, and engraved as such on the lower, it cannot be configured into a pistol without a SBR tax stamp. I have a Double Star lower stamped PISTOL, and was shown on the dealers inventory when I bought the stripped lower as a pistol, on which I put an ACE pistol buffer tube kit, and an 11.5" Bushy upper. If I put a stock on it, it's an SBR, unless I also switch to a 16"+ barrel, in which case it's legal.

Sorry for the thread drift, but thought that should be clarified.

[stik]

As the guys before me stated, get a stripped or complete lower now or ASAP. And like the guy said, don't go pay some jacked up price gouging tkt price some stores have on them now.

You can get a pre-fab upper from Del-ton and have it configured the way you want it and it will be assembled and test fired. Just pop the upper on to your lower and you are good to go. If you take your time and price things right, I have built a stock carbine for approx $650 w/lower and upper from del-ton. Add muzzle brake, rear sight and/or optic of your choice.

Find a used Benelli M1 for around $6-800, add nordic tube, or a beat up Rem 1100 for $3-400 and add nordic tube and replace all the o-rings and buy extras and test fire the heck out of it to make sure it runs w/low recoil slugs and light bird shot.

Get a Glock 35, add sights and a magwell, 4 mags w/Dawson or Arredondo basepads and you are good to go. Bladetech holster or one to your liking and some mag pouches.

With the above you can get into the game for less than 3 grand total.

[lmccrock]

A starter rifle for a young person ("grad student") does not need a scope. A good scope is about the cost of the rifle. So stick to iron sights and put more into magazines.....for now.

From my understanding, unless a lower was manufactured as a PISTOL, and engraved as such on the lower, it cannot be configured into a pistol without a SBR tax stamp.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. It is my understanding that a lower does not have to be stamped "PISTOL". Some vendors stamp PISTOL which means it was never assembled into a rifle before you got it, so its a good way to cover yourself legally. Other vendors will supply a letter that says a stripped lower was never assembled before you got it and so it is legal to assemble into a pistol.

ARFCOM has a AR Pistol forum; you might look at that if there is some interest.

Lee

[Charles Bond]

Buying the lowers are a good idea. They are never going to be cheaper and the potential upside is huge. Buying the mags is also a good idea for the same reasons as are making sure you have some good pistol mags rat holed. What I have not seen mentioned is a shotgun. Buy a M1 or M2 Benelli now along with a nordic magazine tube. Do not think that the politicial assault that is coming is just going to ignore shotguns. What the Democrats learned from the assault weapons ban is how to close the loopholes on the new one and we are going to see potentially see shotgun tube extensions regulated in the same manner as high cap magaines and little if any distinction between the manner of regulation between shotguns and rifles.

[John Tuley]

The shotgun's going to have to wait. My dad made me an offer I couldn't refuse: he told me to order the (complete) rifle NOW and he would send me a check to cover it, repayable when I can. He knows it'll take a couple years for me to make that back up, but Benny Hill says my rifle will be in my hands in 4-6 weeks. Original plan was just to buy a lower from someone and hoard it until I could afford to send it somewhere, but Dad basically would not take no for an answer.

The good news is that I can save towards the shotgun. I'll keep my eyes peeled for good deals, but if anyone is interested in selling one to me with a "finance plan" let me know! (Ha ha, yeah right! Who in their right mind would let me pay off the gun at $100 a month? . . . but if you're crazy enough to do that, send me a PM and I'll talk it over with the boss.) Convincing my wife to let me buy a shotgun while Dad's loan is outstanding is going to be just about impossible . . . it sucks having someone telling you to do the responsible thing, but it keeps the banks off your back.

As far as pistols go, I plan to either continue shooting one of the pistols I've got: a USP .45 (L10) and a Beretta 92FS (Prod.). Neither is ideal, but I've got 'em, and I'm not likely to get rid of them. (The Beretta is another loan from Dad, and the HK stays around since I still want to have a nightstand/carry gun.)

I'm also ordering mags as fast as I can afford them. Disposable cash is short around here, but I'm making an extra $60-90 per week from tutoring some kids in calculus . . . another week or two and I'll probably buy another 6-8 PMags, for a total of 10-12. Mags for the USP are probably going to have to stay where they are (7 12-rd, 5 10-rd) since those are about $45-50 a piece, and I still don't have that shotgun. In the meantime, I still have to eat, pay rent, buy AR accessories (tools, parts, scope of some kind, case, etc.)

Thanks for everyone's help and advice!

[jobob]

The good news is that I can save towards the shotgun.

The fact that your dad is forking up the $ for a custom AR is NOT the good news?

[dcarter]

The sad thing is that we have to have this kind of talk.....again. I weep for the future! I'm in law enforcement and I see no need for this kind of crap. Sorry for the thread drift but I just can't help myself.

[kdmoore]

I think you'll hate yourself if you don't put a Glock 22 in the stable. If you have to sell the HK, I would. The limited10 division basically protects your pistol from being low capacity, but in 3 gun you'll be running against 20 round guns.

As for shotgun, I only raise this point as something to work thru .... are the benelli's in danger of being picked on? They are a foriegn gun, so theoretically 922r comes into play. You can't have them in a non-sporting configuration (think pistol grip and hi capacity) unless you lower their foriegn parts count, not easy to do with benelli's. Currently this administration has turned a blind eye to them. I hope I'm wrong. Personally, If finances are tight, I'd look for a good cheap 1100. You can find hunters beat up guns for < $300 occasionally ... put an extension on it and you are close to there. You can replace bbl, stocks sights as you know what you want and have money to spend.

BTW, if you want better paying "side jobs" I'd look into test prep tutoring (SAT and above).