Why don't women shooters do better?

[Catfish]

OK, take this in the manner that the question was asked....

Dave I think hit part of the nail on the head. Testosterone. Aggression....

But I also think a significant part of it is how ladies shoot at big matches, as in with the ladies "super squad". Kay, Lisa and Athena are M class shooters and shoot like, well, M class shooters, regardless of gender. However, take a look at the rest of the ladies in the super squads at Area/national matches and how many other M's do they shoot with? How many A's? B's? Etc etc.

I honestly feel that the ladies who want to compete at the highest level are hurting themselves by shooting with the ladies super squad at major matches.

I think it is an accepted fact that if you want to shoot better, you shoot with shooters who are better than you. I don't think that (short of a select few of the top women) that the ladies are shooting with shooters who are better with them and as a result their game suffers.

Everything from how to attack the stage to being pushed by the big dogs has got to negatively effect the women's super squads because they don't have those big dogs to feed off of.

Take a look at the men's super squads - maybe 1 or 2 M class guys and the rest GM's - any of whom have a chance to win the match.

Wouldn't the ladies who really want to compete at the highest level be better off if they were paired in a squad of M's and GM's than A-C class shooters?

I could really care less about the gender of a shooter. A shooter is a shooter. I just think that the ladies who want to compete for HOA are doing themselves a disservice by shooting in a squad full of other ladies rather than with the other shooters who have a shot at winning the match.

[ExtremeShot]

Now, of course, supplementing testosterone might change that..

That's what I'm talking about. Any volunteers ladies?

[Wakal]

I think this boils down to reward.

We, as a sport, keep rewarding females by giving them their own special little trophy and status, oh how cute, look at the girl shooting (where is the pukey emoticon?)

If there was just an overall award, I think it would drive female competition to the same level as it has for the males. Males cannot hide out in their own special little category; they have to fight it out with everyone else. As long as we keep rewarding mediocrity, there is no reason for females to do any better.

That has been touched on nicely earlier in this thread, and brings to mind the old story of the two divers being chased by the shark. One diver doesn't have to swim faster than the shark...just faster than their buddy... Same thing with shooting. While I don't think it is an overt decision, the fact that the females only have to beat other females (and not all takers) to get all the recognition and "champion" status, instead of turning in a sub-par performance and being ranked with everyone else, does not generate that extra bit of drive that it would take to make it to the top.

Until the special categories go away, I would not expect to see female’s performance improve much further. And I think that is horrible...

Alex

[38superman]

I'll take a stab at answering this question with the preface that it is pure speculation on my part.

IPSC is a relatively new sport and I'm sure it was dominated by men from it's inception.

When women started getting involved there were already quite a few very experienced men around.

The ladies had a lot of ground to make up as they entered the sport.

There is also the fact that many males have gun handling and marksmanship skills that go back far beyond their first IPSC competition.

A lot of the men have firearms experience gained in the military or hunting experience that literally goes back to childhood.

I suspect a lot of the women that take up the sport don't have that edge.

As the sport matures and more women get involved I expect things will start to level out.

I routinely get waxed by a lot of the more experienced ladies and there are young guns coming along all the time.

It's just a matter of time.

Tls

[Charles Bond]

I have been doing this for a while and do not see as many women that stay in the sport long-term. We have had some really great women shooters that had the aggressiveness and physical ability to compete at the same level as the top guys, but they have mostly come and gone. This probably has a lot more to do with life priorities than anything else, but we are more addicted to sports, toys and games than women are.

Locally we had Kim Stroud, that shot for many years, and she handed the guys their butts more often than not. She too left to pursue other insterests.

Come to think of it I have not seen Kim at a match in quite a while. What other interests did she leave for?

[zhunter]

I haven't met a lady on the range, yet, who told me emphatically, sincerely, and realistically that her goal was to be a top GM - they seem to be content with just beating the other ladies. Until that changes - someone determined to break status quo - don't expect it change (personally, I'd love to see it ).

I could really care less about the gender of a shooter. A shooter is a shooter. I just think that the ladies who want to compete for HOA are doing themselves a disservice by shooting in a squad full of other ladies rather than with the other shooters who have a shot at winning the match.

If there was just an overall award, I think it would drive female competition to the same level as it has for the males. Males cannot hide out in their own special little category; they have to fight it out with everyone else. As long as we keep rewarding mediocrity, there is no reason for females to do any better.

That has been touched on nicely earlier in this thread, and brings to mind the old story of the two divers being chased by the shark. One diver doesn't have to swim faster than the shark...just faster than their buddy... Same thing with shooting.

Wakal

Very good analogy

Catfish, Xre, and Wakal are all right on the money, it comes down to expectations. If you are trying to be High Lady, or High "C" Class shooter for that matter ( This whole thing pertains to both men and women), then you most likely will finish around the position of your expectations/hopes. But if you are only striving to be High Lady/High "C" then that is where you will finish.

Many of you know, my background is golf, and I can tell you, if you tee off on Thursday thinking/worried about the 36 hole cut on Friday, MOST of the time you will be within a shot or two of that score, but... IF you are thinking about winning, or better yet, executing each shot/hole/stage, then your immediate focus/execution of individual shots/arrays/stages will allow you to rise higher then you would thinking about finishing in a certain position/place in a tournament/match.

IF you don't think your thoughts/expectations are not self fulfilling prophecies, then you are sadly mistaken, and have a lot to learn about competing at the highest level in any sport as pertaining to the Ladies. For the men, often times we hear "stuck in "X" Class, well, the same holds true for you.

As stated above, shoot with the best shooters you can, watch them, and learn from them. DON'T try to go as fast as they go, but maybe a bit faster than you are accustomed to going.

I will end this post with a quote from my late coach of 17 years, he used to tell me all the time to say this to myself every day several times, "Every day, in every way, I am getting better and better."

Improvement is a gradual thing, the important thing is to constantly keep improving a little at a time.

[Jimlakeside]

My wife didn't grow up playing baseball, football, tennis, etc. like I did. I think sports and hunting at a young age are a real plus in developing the skills necessary to shoot later in life.

[BSeevers]

I think its a desire/motivation/interest thing. For those that think women can't be aggressive, maybe go a round with Gina Carano.

Men have an more strength per pound, uh no kidding, but I don't think its not an advantage in USPSA as it is in say football. I think if the "right" woman shot seriously for 5 years or grew up as a shooter, it would be different. Its already changing. Check out how long Rebecca Jones has been shooting. Look at this years results. Todd probably helped.

[Chris iliff]

I didn't know that there were no GM ladies? Tell me that info is wrong, please,.... somebody.

[Calamity Jane]

I would have to bet that if a person set her mind to get in rockin' shape, and spend the right quality time behind the gun, the situation would be quite a bit different.

I haven't met a lady on the range, yet, who told me emphatically, sincerely, and realistically that her goal was to be a top GM - they seem to be content with just beating the other ladies. Until that changes - someone determined to break status quo - don't expect it change (personally, I'd love to see it ).

Hmmmmmm. You've got me thinking....which is always a dangerous thing.

I think there is a lady GM out there....Tonya somebody from Texas. She was the one who always wore scoccer shorts and shirts to shoot in. Am I right?

[Flexmoney]

The biggest hurdles that is see to people's shooting...male or female...are mental.

[DrawandDuck]

I see your point Jason, but I'm with Britin. I take ass-whoopins all the time from women...

But BOZ, you have to PAY for yours!!!!!

[Merlin Orr]

I would have to bet that if a person set her mind to get in rockin' shape, and spend the right quality time behind the gun, the situation would be quite a bit different.

I haven't met a lady on the range, yet, who told me emphatically, sincerely, and realistically that her goal was to be a top GM - they seem to be content with just beating the other ladies. Until that changes - someone determined to break status quo - don't expect it change (personally, I'd love to see it ).

Hmmmmmm. You've got me thinking....which is always a dangerous thing.

I think there is a lady GM out there....Tonya somebody from Texas. She was the one who always wore scoccer shorts and shirts to shoot in. Am I right?

Tonda Gillfillan? Master last I heard.... Fierce competitor and a very serious student of shooting.......

[zhunter]

I KNOW Carina knows the answer, she will resurface.

I don't think a woman has made GM yet. It will happen, but has not yet.

[kgunz11]

I didn't know that there were no GM ladies? Tell me that info is wrong, please,.... somebody.

According to USPSA HQ, isn't and never has been a female Grand Master in any division. Lisa, Kay, Kippie, and Athena must be dangerously close I'd suppose.

[ima45dv8]

Merlin beat me to it. I got to shoot with Tonda a few years back and met her at the Nationals.

The term, "Iron will" comes to mind.

[kgunz11]

Tonda Gillfillan? Master last I heard.... Fierce competitor and a very serious student of shooting.......

Some day someone will be saying that about Jane Ball

[ima45dv8]

I see your point Jason, but I'm with Britin. I take ass-whoopins all the time from women...

But BOZ, you have to PAY for yours!!!!!

Not as much as you might think.

I believe they have a "Frequent Flyer" program.

[Matt Cheely]

I believe it is finding the combination of natural talent, mental toughness, and the will to succeed that has not emerged in a female shooter yet.

I hope to see it happen.

[DrawandDuck]

I see your point Jason, but I'm with Britin. I take ass-whoopins all the time from women...

But BOZ, you have to PAY for yours!!!!!

Not as much as you might think.

I believe they have a "Frequent Flyer" program.

I suspected as much, for some reason I snaped a pic of Boz's car at the last EAGC match.....I thought it was odd but considering the subject I didn't give it another thought...

[dfwmiket]

Tonda has moved on to other interests these days, and shoots very rarely......just FYI.

-Mike

[JKSNIPER]

Several reasons spring to mind:

1. Women tend to have slightly slower reaction times than men, typically 5% slower. So expect an average draw time to be 5% slower than a male.

2. Reaction time for women drops rapidly if a woman is even slightly dehydrated, but for a man slight dehydration can reduce reaction time. It was stinking hot in Bali.

3. Visual acuity gets worse for women over time than it does for men, effects generally start at 40+ (same as men) but the drop off is more severe for women.

4. Men and women's brains are wired differently. Men are better able to focus on a single thing, women on the other hand are better able to multi-task. In theory this would seem to benefit men when focussing on single event such as shooting.

You can google a lot of this stuff for yourself, but it's worth pointing out two things:

1. These are generics, there are exceptions to everything.

2. Having said all the above, and to prove point (1), I seem to get my butt kicked by women every time I enter big competitions so take all the above with a big grain a salt.

Jason, What are you doing? You're going to have every woman shooter in the area gunning for you.

Oh, and didn't you get beat by a girl at the regional? Quite severely if I remember right

Back on topic

I think the shear number of male shooters also account for some of the difference. The pool of talent is much larger. Also how many women actually seek out this sport themselves vs. how many are just tagging along with hubby/boyfriend? I'm sure there are lots of opinons but since I'm married that's all I'm going to say.

I agree with what Birt and J-ho have said as well as JT has said and I think JT hit it best....its a question of numbers.

Look at billiards.

For MANY years NO women played pool/billiards.

Would anyone here want to go up against Coor or Jeanette Lee(aka the Black Widow) for $ ?

No way.

Once we get the #'s in USPSA/Shooting in general that women have in other sports I think we will see many women champions.

Hey little Julie G. won me some money one day out at Gabreski.

A fellow L.E.O. was shooting with me in the Glock match and she came strolling by and I bet the guy that she would out shoot him.

He had NO idea who she was.

OK......Ok....so it was stealing......I knew who she was and all but ......but I plead that his ego would not let him consider the possibility that a woman could shoot better than him....therefore it was LEGALIZED stealing.

Anyone here who teaches marksmanship/shooting will tell you that the best beginner students are usually women.

Why?

In my experience and Humble Opinion......No ego to overcome.

The men step up to the line and pull the trigger for the first time and don't get the result they thought they would and get frustrated and a little angry and start fudging up by getting all tense and worked up. THey sem to feel that since they see shooting on TV that somehow they should have the shooting hardwired into them from birth and why is is so much harder than on TV?

Women LISTEN better when given instruction and just do what they're told.

IMHO Ego is the biggest problem with learning new skills for men.

True life no Shi**er story from the early 80's:

Primiere HK MP-5 instructor from British SAS was having a "pint" with me and a few other guys after a long training day.

I asked him his opinion of a brother services anti terrorist team.

He had instructed some members of this particular (shall forever be) nameless team on the MP-5 along with some L.E.O.s.

Me: "What do you think of blank Team blank?"

He said "Not too much."

I asked why.

He said they came to the school with the attitude that they were the pros from Dover and were going to show everyone how its done.

The LEOs by comparison were totally inexperienced and had for the most part never even held the MP-5 before.

This SAS vet ("Phil") said the LEOs were all out shooting the members of blank Team blank by the third day because they LISTENED and adopted the method being taught.

The "others" were shooting hostage targets and "mucking it up" .

I forget if he said they left prior to the end of the school or if they even "graduated" from the school.

He was a funny MFER....he said something about "floppies" one day and I raised my hand and asked him what he meant when he referred to floppies.

"Floppies? WHat are floppies? Well mate when you shoot a guy in the head with the 9mm he tends to flop around a bit so we call them floppies."

Funny guy.

Ego is a tough thing to overcome especially in the type"A" world of tactics and shooting.

Just my .02

JK

[GTOSHootr]

Check out how long Rebecca Jones has been shooting.

Rebecca and Megan Francisco are tough, incredible shooters! 2nd and 3rd A class at the Nats, and without a couple jams, they would have been 1st and 2nd and in the mid 30s easy. They've got M cards in the near future (I hope, I'm still A ) .

[SiG Lady]

OK, everyone here knows I don't shoot IPSC, but I engaged in some fierce and regular indoor competitions for a while (until I frankly couldn't afford it anymore). We weren't broken down into groups, classifications, gender-ized or handicapped. I had to compete head-to-head with some of the finest shooters we had in the neighborhood and "man up" and shoot like I meant it. Which I did. I was in it to win--no question of it. I was highly competitive and hard on myself. I took home trophies. Everyone knew I meant business behind the trigger and took an interest in my motivations and my analyses of what I might or might not have done correctly on this or that target array. I fussed and fumed over nuances sometimes, and constantly sought better ways to shoot. I really DID take it seriously. And everyone knew it.

I would've continued to improve had I the $$$ resources at the time. Sometimes life just gets in the way. Money's been tight for a while, so I just plink on the occasional weekend now. I feel like a huge (and important) chunk of my life disappeared as a result.

But I'm still in it to win. I still love to shoot. I want to be good at it or not at all.

[Calamity Jane]

FYI....Just looked up the top 10 women at Nationals this year to see who is closest to GM in Open.

Kay is leading with 90.50

Lisa with 87.93

Athena 86.11