Accidental Discharge of AR in safe area at match toda

[Blaster]

Local club had its 2ed 3gun match today with lots of green saftey officers and shooters. One shooter has accidental discharge of his AR in safe area.Bullet went into 4by4 about 3ft above ground. Takes about 20 seconds to find tiny 223 hole . Shooter left before giving explanation of what happen. This whole thing of 3gun matches with not having to have guns cased, just flagged and okey to be pointed any which way scares me and is a disaster waiting besides this AD.Has anyone heard of ADs in safe areas? Blaster

[maineshootah]

Local club had its 2ed 3gun match today with lots of green saftey officers and shooters. One shooter has accidental discharge of his AR in safe area.Bullet went into 4by4 about 3ft above ground. Takes about 20 seconds to find tiny 223 hole . Shooter left before giving explanation of what happen. This whole thing of 3gun matches with not having to have guns cased, just flagged and okey to be pointed any which way scares me and is a disaster waiting besides this AD.Has anyone heard of ADs in safe areas? Blaster

If the gun is flagged, it can't fire... that is why there is a flag there.

Muzzle control still needs to be monitored and controlled with either a muzzle up / muzzle down transportation method. Unsafe gun handling still applies, there is just not a "holster" for them to stay when not on the firing line. (Why gun racks should be necessary equipment for 2/3/multigun matches)

Having an AD at the safe area means one of three things.

A ) the participant was not paying attention to the safety meeting.

B ) Ammo was meeting gun at the safe area.

C ) the flag was out of the gun.

If we had a AD in the Safe area, I would not take the time to find the hole, I would rather be "all up in his grill" as to why his brain is not engaged when handling firearms.

Edited November 2, 2008 by maineshootah

[sirveyr]

Local club had its 2ed 3gun match today with lots of green saftey officers and shooters. One shooter has accidental discharge of his AR in safe area.Bullet went into 4by4 about 3ft above ground. Takes about 20 seconds to find tiny 223 hole . Shooter left before giving explanation of what happen. This whole thing of 3gun matches with not having to have guns cased, just flagged and okey to be pointed any which way scares me and is a disaster waiting besides this AD.Has anyone heard of ADs in safe areas? Blaster

I was one of the "green" SO's that you are referring to, and I happened to be running the bay near which the incident occurred. I was in the process of loading the other SO for his run, when we heard the "pop".

I have not spoken to the shooter since he left the range. I will contact him in the next few days to discuss the incident. I'm fairly sure that it was a negligent discharge, but it may have been an accidental discharge, because he was having issues with his rifle earlier in the match. He is an experienced shooter and was obviously very upset and embarrassed by the incident.

Things like this happen and there are measures in place to keep things safe. All of the measures worked. Why was there ammo in the safe area? I will find out.

We can always use "experienced" help. Next time, come on out and SO some shooters. Thanks for playing with us.

[AikiDale]

Disclaimer: I know nothing about this incident.

It is possible the shooter had a problem with his weapon and properly took it to the safe area to effect repairs. Having an AD with a jammed weapon in the safe area is much better than having it most other places on the range. This is why muzzle control is so important.

[busyhawk]

AikiDale:

"It is possible the shooter had a problem with his weapon and properly took it to the safe area to effect repairs. Having an AD with a jammed weapon in the safe area is much better than having it most other places on the range. This is why muzzle control is so important."

Sir,

As an RO/SO if there is a problem with unload and show clear with a weapon/firearm you don't let that firearm leave the line until it is cleared...period. There is NO AMMO in the SAFE AREA...period. There is no question if the firearm fired in the safe area, it was a ND (negligent discharge). I am not blaming anyone here, just stateing the facts.

Now no one is perfect and that goes for me too for sure. Problems happen from time to time but you must address them when they happen and not at a later date and time (if possible). We just have to stop everything we are doing and address the action and put an end to it. Without safety, this sport we all enjoy will cease to happen.

Sirveyr,

"Things like this happen and there are measures in place to keep things safe. All of the measures worked."

Sir,

I am no new shooter and have never heard of such a thing. All measures didn't work! To say such a thing is beyond my thought process. If they worked at all no shot would be fired. Some of the measures might have worked...

Scott Hawkins

AKA Busyhawk

[CSEMARTIN]

Has anyone heard of ADs in safe areas?

YES

I'm fairly sure that it was a negligent discharge, but it may have been an accidental discharge,

An accidental discharge and a negligent discharge are the same thing.

[JThompson]

The guy had his head up his arse... there isn't any excuse for that to happen.

[Chuck Anderson]

This is not a 3Gun problem. I've seen this at many more pistol matches than rifle matches. I've seen way more competitors with a magazine in a pistol than I have in a rifle when they weren't supposed to. This is a problem with the individual shooter and/or match staff that didn't handle a stuck case (maybe) properly. The upside was the ND was contained within a safe backstop. The bad thing is it sounds like he caused someone to have a negative perception, or maybe just reinforced an already negative perception from the sound of your post, of 3 Gun.

[wide45]

Let the the bashing begin!

I suggest this thread be closed. Constructive discussion isn't going to happen.

[DougCarden]

I deleted three posts last night cuz I was tired and didnt want to bash, but stuff does happen.....We have to calmly approach people that have these things happen to them and counsel them on corrective action, not pull the Armed Forces Drill Instructor bit with them. 98.5% of them are scared to death, embarrassed, and just want to crawl into a hole. The other percentage of shooters need to be run off the range and told not to come back because it is either "not their fault for not following the rules" or will blame others for their mishap and not take accountability or responsibility.

It is not fun, but it has to happen. This is not just for 3 gun matches IMHO.......

How we deal with people at the matches is paramount to them coming back. Of course, there are some that don't need to come back, but that usually takes care of itself too......

DougC

[mike.45]

they way I understand it is that you can have live ammunition in the safe area - just that you cant handle it or touch it in any way, eg loaded mags - am I wrong ?

[Glen]

they way I understand it is that you can have live ammunition in the safe area - just that you cant handle it or touch it in any way, eg loaded mags - am I wrong ?

You are correct.

[sirveyr]

Sirveyr,

"Things like this happen and there are measures in place to keep things safe. All of the measures worked."

Sir,

I am no new shooter and have never heard of such a thing. All measures didn't work! To say such a thing is beyond my thought process. If they worked at all no shot would be fired. Some of the measures might have worked...

Scott Hawkins

AKA Busyhawk

I was referring to how our safe area was constructed. It kept the round on our property and out of person. Hopefully this will help with your thought process.

An accidental discharge and a negligent discharge are the same thing.

I was taught that an AD is mechanically induced and a ND is shooter induced. Both are bad.

Can we close this thread now?

[Nik Habicht]

We don't typically close threads because of participant request or starter remorse.....

I'm thinking that there's still productive points to be made. Doug Carden's post seems like a good jumping off point.....

[SA Friday]

If you are around shooting enough, eventually you will see AD's and ND's. I agree with sirveyr's definitions. That's how I've always used them, but it's kinda like the semantics of blood splatter vs blood spatter... There's a difference but after the fact, the S's already HTF...

To the original poster, I would not let this put you off of shooting 3gun. ADs/NDs are going to happen, experienced, unexperienced, or in-between shooters will have them. I've seen some very very experienced shooters bury bullets in wood in safe areas. That's why safety measures are layered. That's why safe areas are positioned and/or constructed as they are.

It sounds to me like the safety area contained the bullet. Perfect. Everything else is a personal matter to be handled between the shooter and MD. Sounds to me like that's the case, and everything was and is being handled wisely. Can't ask for more comfort than that.

[lmccrock]

There is no excuse for a hot gun in a safe area. Not much we can do if a shooter ignores a basic rule like "no ammo in the safe area".

This whole thing of 3gun matches with not having to have guns cased, just flagged and okey to be pointed any which way scares me

I have seen shooters who would be horrified of bad muzzle discipline with a pistol, yet they wave long guns around without consideration of where the muzzle is pointed. Would we stand at the safe table, draw and wave a pistol 360 degrees around? Of course not. With a long gun? A shooter called me a range nazi at a local match because I did not like being swept by his shotgun and I made my feelings known.

So, we still have some work to do and probably the best place to start is the shooter's meeting, with reminders of safe handling and what we mean by that.

Lee.

[JKSNIPER]

Mods.......Sorry if this is a little off topic but since the definition was posted here I thought it appropriate to address it here.

Ref: A.D. vs N.D. everyone seems to have their own standard/defitnition of which is which.

In the L.E./Military world they are, and I have heard them used, both ways and interchangable.

There are agencies that insist that ANYTIME your weapon fires and you did not intend to fire it then its an N.D.

Others don't use N.D. for the connotation that N.D. has toward the shooter......that he must somehow be negligent to have had this happen so they always use A.D. even though their definition is the same.

I believe they do it that way because they are more being concerned over legalities and liability on the agencies part rather than finding a "true" definition of A.D.vs N.D. God firbid if someone is injured/killed they don't want the label of N.D. they would rather have it called A.D. because the implication is its an accident rather than someone was negligent.

I know agencies that if you're on their SWAT team and you have an A.D./N.D. even on the range you might as well pack up and go clean out your locker because its an automatic transfer off the team for having one.

If you adhere to the mechanical vs shooter induced definition of A.D. vs N.D. it is hard if not impossible to prove it was one way and not the other.....UNLESS the malfunction is repeatable or an exam of the weapon will show a defect or clearly responsible part that caused it.

A good example is the Remington 700 trigger/ safety used on a HUGE # of sniper rifles in the police and military sniper community.

There have been several reports in the sniper community of this system discharging a round when the safety was taken off and the shooter claims his finger was no where near the trigger. I have only heard of ONE time where it was wittnessed where it happened 2X in a row and the RO and other shooters were gathered around to wittness it. I personally spoke to the RO who was running the line at the time it happened and he verified the story that it discharged a second time when the safety was manipulated.

If I recal correctly the trigger had been adjusted by "someone" so it would fire with approx 1-2 pound pull which is WAAAY below acceptable standard for a sniper rifle.

Others incidents have been "rumors".

IMHO since it is damm near impossible to move your thumb independently in the motion to remove the safety of the Rem700 without moving fingers at the same time IMHO a majority of these have been UNINTENTIONAL discharges where the shooters finger hits the trigger but he has no concious memory of having moved his finger toward the trigger. Therefore when it happens he is as surprised as everyone else is and claims "It just went off!"

As a moderator for SOL (Snipersonline) we had a standing offer for over 2 years from Charles Milazzo (amazing gunsmith) that ANY agency or sniper having experienced such an occurance could submit his weapon to Charlie for examination where he would check it at only shipping expense and see if indeed the trigger system/safety had somehow malfunctioned and caused such a thing to occur.

Charlie's offer was NEVER taken up by anyone despite several claims that such things happened on a regular basis.

Why?

Could be a few reasons.

1. Shooter realized finger DID hit trigger but only AFTER discharge happened and is too embarassed/ashamed to admit it. Couple that with the automatic transfer for an N.D. and you get "I never touched it....it went off when I removed the safety!" Theres NO way he is now going to risk a primere gunsmith saying in effect that your weapon is functioning fine.

2. Shooter had a "bubba the gunsmith" trigger job that now measures well below the min safe engagement for the sear and does not want anyone knowing this.

3. Shooter has not maintained his weapons system properly and does not want anyone finding this out

4. Agency does not want it to be found out that their rifles are "unsafe"

Etc.......

A long way to say that without repeatability of the malfunction all we have is the shooters word to go on when the weapon goes "boom" as to which way it went down (A.D. or N.D.) and in most cases of claims of A.D. the weapon cannot be made to repeat the malfunction.

Sorry for the length of post and if its wandered off topic a little I apologize.

JK

[Greg Bell]

I have seen shooters who would be horrified of bad muzzle discipline with a pistol, yet they wave long guns around without consideration of where the muzzle is pointed. Would we stand at the safe table, draw and wave a pistol 360 degrees around? Of course not. With a long gun? A shooter called me a range nazi at a local match because I did not like being swept by his shotgun and I made my feelings known.

So, we still have some work to do and probably the best place to start is the shooter's meeting, with reminders of safe handling and what we mean by that.

Lee.

Lee,

I agree muzzle up or down with a chamber flag. Really how much does a flag cost? $2.00 or so? Muzzle discipline is free. Guns coming out of cases, racks, carts etc are not going to have "perfect" muzzle direction but they can certainly go into a safe direction ASAP.

Just shot a 3-gun yesterday where flags were available for sale, yet we still had guns floating around without flags

[davidwiz]

A few years ago, I was at a local 3-Gun match. Local shooter was showing his rifle off to others, pointing it at everyone, including people downrange, scoring targets. The ro refused to do anything and the rm didn't want to get involved. Ironically, the idiot had a chamber flag in his rifle, but how the $%@! are you supposed to tell when you are 30 yards away and see a rifle being pointed at you - besides, what happened to the rules: treat every gun as if it was loaded and don't point it at anything you don't want to destroy?.

Quite a few matches I've gone to require you to rack your rifle/shotgun in the supplied racks - which I think is a good idea.

[mike.45]

There is no excuse for a hot gun in a safe area. Not much we can do if a shooter ignores a basic rule like "no ammo in the safe area"

Glen thanks for your reply. !!!

You can have ammo there - you just cant touch it - all this talk about no ammo in the safe area is making me think I have been screwing up all these years !!

[cas]

"As an RO/SO if there is a problem with unload and show clear with a weapon/firearm you don't let that firearm leave the line until it is cleared...period."

That's the plan.. and a nice idea. But I think back to all the customers I've sent home over the years, with loaded guns. Guns that myself and others worked on for some time and were never able to unload. You can't hold the match up forever.

[Nik Habicht]

"As an RO/SO if there is a problem with unload and show clear with a weapon/firearm you don't let that firearm leave the line until it is cleared...period."

That's the plan.. and a nice idea. But I think back to all the customers I've sent home over the years, with loaded guns. Guns that myself and others worked on for some time and were never able to unload. You can't hold the match up forever.

As a matter of fact, not only can you hold the match up forever --- you have a duty to every shooter there to do so. Someone at the match will know how to fix the problem, in a safe manner......

[sirveyr]

"As an RO/SO if there is a problem with unload and show clear with a weapon/firearm you don't let that firearm leave the line until it is cleared...period."

That's the plan.. and a nice idea. But I think back to all the customers I've sent home over the years, with loaded guns. Guns that myself and others worked on for some time and were never able to unload. You can't hold the match up forever.

This firearm was cleared and flagged (by me) at the line. The shooter took it upon himself to "work on it" in the safe area. He was "unaware" that ammo was not allowed in the safe area. The "no ammo in the safe area" is discussed at every shooters meeting, multiple times. After talking with him, he knew this, but he did it anyway. At that point, what can an RO do? I don't really want to assign someone the job of monitoring the safe area.

Now, back the OP's concerns. Of all the 3-gun type matches that I've been to, the chamber flags have been used. The idea of cased firearms seem that it would be a bit unpractical and time consuming to bring cased guns to and from the line. IMHO, a chamber flag is good enough. Obviously, I'm all for the not being swept with a gun, flag or no flag. I've shot matches where racks were used and I've also used slings (during the COF and between stages).

[Jaxshooter]

I feel in this case the shooter needs to be contacted as soon as possible in a civilized manner to obtain the facts as to how this incident happened. It appears as if the SO/ROs may have been the first part of the problem if the gun malfunctioned as mentioned above and the shooter was allowed to leave the line with a hot gun.

If it was a jam that could not be cleared on the line the gun could have been disassembled on the line like I have seen done with many pistols, bagged and put in the car. Luckily no one was hurt.

[SiG Lady]

"As an RO/SO if there is a problem with unload and show clear with a weapon/firearm you don't let that firearm leave the line until it is cleared...period."

That was kinda my take on it all along. Jaxshooter makes a decent point, too, about disassembling a jammed firearm on the line before taking it out of the hot zone.