Knee-down why?

[jam-man]

Tried to locate the one knee down rule in the rule book, however I could not find it. Does it exsist and if so why? I was dicussing this with some shooters at our last match and we all came to the same conclusion, it would be very dangoues to get into a set postion with one knee down. In other words you could get your AXX shoot off putting your self in a slower postion to move out of. With multiuple targets and you are flanked the split second it would take to get out of that postion could cost you your life. Am I missing something?

[atbarr]

With multiuple targets and you are flanked the split second it would take to get out of that postion could cost you your life. Am I missing something?

If you have arthritic knees, getting back up is more that a "split second".

Stay Safe,

A.T.

[Seth]

Don't confuse self defense with a game.

[ima45dv8]

Tried to locate the one knee down rule in the rule book, however I could not find it. Does it exsist and if so why? I was dicussing this with some shooters at our last match and we all came to the same conclusion, it would be very dangoues to get into a set postion with one knee down. In other words you could get your AXX shoot off putting your self in a slower postion to move out of. With multiuple targets and you are flanked the split second it would take to get out of that postion could cost you your life. Am I missing something?

From the current IDPA rulebook as published on IDPA.com:

"Appendix THREE -- Cover

More than 50% of the shooter’s upper torso must be behind cover while engaging threat targets and/or reloading. For low cover, one knee must be on the ground and for vertical cover such as a wall/barricade, 100% of the shooter’s legs and feet must be behind cover."

[emphasis added}

HTH...

[sfinney]

Knee on ground is how they defined the rule. They were trying to a) provide force a more stable shooting platform, and keep gamers from moving through shooting positions while only squatting or doing the splits, etc..... slow everyone down somewhat. IMHO. While the intent of the rules are to certainly be more "tactical" than some other shooting disciplines, don't confuse the defined rules as the gospel of real world defense shooting. They are just standardized rules, for a game.

[Fireant]

The why is because the rule maker said so.

[Ted Murphy]

They stipulate 1 knee down so they don't have to worry about how high the shooter is in relation to the low cover. Does three things.'

1.) Makes it easier to officiate as the SO doesn't have to worry about a strike zone

2.) Makes it so tall people don't get penalized for not squinching behind low cover.

3.) Makes for a topic that pops up on the forums from time to time.

Ted

[Gregg K]

Not all shorter cover is designated as "Low Cover", if the COF defines a position as "Low Cover" then you must have at least one knee down. Like always, if you have any doubt ask the SO if it is designated as "Low Cover", if not use standard cover rules of 100% of your legs and 50% of your upper torso.

[Fireant]

They stipulate 1 knee down so they don't have to worry about how high the shooter is in relation to the low cover. Does three things.'

1.) Makes it easier to officiate as the SO doesn't have to worry about a strike zone

2.) Makes it so tall people don't get penalized for not squinching behind low cover.

3.) Makes for a topic that pops up on the forums from time to time.

Ted

Never really thought about number 1, but you are right. It is either down or it's not. Very easy.

[AikiDale]

Tried to locate the one knee down rule in the rule book, however I could not find it. Does it exsist and if so why? I was dicussing this with some shooters at our last match and we all came to the same conclusion, it would be very dangoues to get into a set postion with one knee down. In other words you could get your AXX shoot off putting your self in a slower postion to move out of. With multiuple targets and you are flanked the split second it would take to get out of that postion could cost you your life. Am I missing something?

When I first shot IDPA matches I did so thinking it was designed to offer practice in real world defensive skills. I got angry every time I ran into a rule which forced me to do something which would be incredibly stupid in a real world self defense situation. I had the same problem with USPSA matches; they had no bearing on the real world. After going to a few matches, enjoying the trigger time and hating the "that will get me killed!" feeling I figured it out:

competitive shooters are the best shooters. Being the best shooter is an advantage in a gun fight. The shooting sports teach us gun handling and marksmanship skills as well as how to pay attention under stress. They do not teach tactics. Tactics are a separate skill.

Having understood this I can now shoot any shooting sport and enjoy myself. I no longer need to impose my preconception of what a game should be on someone elses game. Just tell me the rules and I can play by them, sometimes be amused by them, and have a great time honing my marksmanship and gun handling skills.

[lugnut]

Did anyone notice the rules for low cover don't specify that your LOWER part of the body needs to be 100% behind cover- like it does for vertical cover?

And yes- it's a game and I treat it as such... but sometimes the rules tweak me a bit as well...

[rvb]

Did anyone notice the rules for low cover don't specify that your LOWER part of the body needs to be 100% behind cover- like it does for vertical cover?

correct.

very few SOs are aware of that.

low cover = 1 knee down and 50% "upper" torso (whatever defines "upper torso").

-rvb

Edited October 21, 2008 by rvb

[freeidaho]

When I first shot IDPA matches I did so thinking it was designed to offer practice in real world defensive skills. I got angry every time I ran into a rule which forced me to do something which would be incredibly stupid in a real world self defense situation. I had the same problem with USPSA matches; they had no bearing on the real world. After going to a few matches, enjoying the trigger time and hating the "that will get me killed!" feeling I figured it out:

competitive shooters are the best shooters. Being the best shooter is an advantage in a gun fight. The shooting sports teach us gun handling and marksmanship skills as well as how to pay attention under stress. They do not teach tactics. Tactics are a separate skill.

Having understood this I can now shoot any shooting sport and enjoy myself. I no longer need to impose my preconception of what a game should be on someone elses game. Just tell me the rules and I can play by them, sometimes be amused by them, and have a great time honing my marksmanship and gun handling skills.

Bravo, on both paragraphs ! ! !

kr

[p99shooter]

The why is because the rule maker said so.

Also remember:

Avoid designing courses of fire that will substantially disadvantage senior and mobility-challenged shooters.

IDPA tries to emphasize shooting skill over speed / movement / physical ability. Yes, I know these are important skills in the "real world," and they help you place better in a match, but that is the idea.

At our club, if a stage has a low cover position, we always try to make it the last position in the course of fire. We have lots of shooters with bad knees, and having to get up from a kneeling position can get real problematic.

[RobMoore]

Agreed. For middle of the course cover using barrels, I'm a fan of giving the option of low cover or crouching cover over the top (so long as 50% torso is below the top). Its about as easy to call as a foot on an imaginary line. The shooter's gun will only be a few inches above the barrel if they are using it properly.

[Ted Murphy]

I don't like stages that have shooters get up from kneeling on the clock. I try very hard never to do them, though I have from time to time.

[Ted Murphy]

Did anyone notice the rules for low cover don't specify that your LOWER part of the body needs to be 100% behind cover- like it does for vertical cover?

Actually it does:

From the Rulebook:

For low cover, one knee must be on the ground and for vertical cover such as a wall/barricade, 100% of the shooter’s legs and feet must be behind

cover.

Barrels and other low walls are still vertical cover. So the 100% of the shooters legs and feet rule applies there as well.

I try not to be super tough on it as some people need to widen their stance or risk falling over, but it is in the book.

[lugnut]

When "low cover" is specified.. it's low cover, not vertical cover, and doesn't require 100% of your lower body to be behind the cover...

Did anyone notice the rules for low cover don't specify that your LOWER part of the body needs to be 100% behind cover- like it does for vertical cover?

Actually it does:

From the Rulebook:

For low cover, one knee must be on the ground and for vertical cover such as a wall/barricade, 100% of the shooter’s legs and feet must be behind

cover.

Barrels and other low walls are still vertical cover. So the 100% of the shooters legs and feet rule applies there as well.

I try not to be super tough on it as some people need to widen their stance or risk falling over, but it is in the book.

[rvb]

More than 50% of the shooter’s upper torso must be behind cover while engaging threat targets and/or reloading. For low cover, one knee must be on the ground and for vertical cover such as a wall/barricade, 100% of the shooter’s legs and feet must be behind cover.

Barrels and other low walls are still vertical cover. So the 100% of the shooters legs and feet rule applies there as well.

Hi Ted,

A thought.... The first sentence I think we can all agree on, that for all cover 50% of the "upper torso" must be behind cover. So we have a rule that applies to ALL cover.

Then it says low cover = one knee [plus the blanket 50% rule].

Then it says vertical cover = 100% legs/feet (such as wall/barricade) [plus the blanket 50% rule].

Can you provide an example of "low cover" that is not "vertical cover" as you describe it? Cause if it's not "vertical" it's not "covering" you. Why not then include the feet/legs in the blanketing first sentence if that is what they wanted?

I've honestly never even -thought- to read the second sentence the way you are reading it. Low cover = knee down. If you are not required to take a knee, then 100% feet/legs is how that reads to me.

I would expect it to read

More than 50% of the shooter’s upper torso and 100% of the feet/legs must be behind cover..... For low cover, one knee....

if your interpretation is correct.

Thanks,

-rvb

Edited October 22, 2008 by rvb

[Duane Thomas]

With absolutely no intention of - or tolerance for - this becoming a "real-world tactics" debate, there was a good reason for the "one knee down while shooting from low cover" rule. It was to force people to shoot around the side of of low cover (which, if you want to get totally tactical about it, can be accomplished while only exposing a sliver of the shooter's face to incoming fire) instead of shooting over low cover (which of necessity exposes the entirety of the shooter's cranium from the eyes up).

[kdmoore]

Ted, yours is the first time that I've seen that statement, locally we don't interpret it that way. I'd agree with RVB on this one in the way that I've always read it, plus I'd agree if they did mean your interpretation it could/should have been written as "use of cover always requires lower body behind cover and <=50% of upper body hidden. Additionally, one knee must touch the ground if cover is defined as low cover". Of course this doesn't make it right or wrong, but might be a reason to check in with RR?

Duane, for the typical 55 drum it is still pretty easy (and a lot faster in my experience) to shoot over the top of the bbl. Typically our local matches spell out of pieing the low cover is required or not.

You could imagine that some low cover specified in a course would make sense to shoot over the top of (i.e. engine block).

To the OP, Personally, I don't see anything wrong with requiring (at least) one knee down. If it's against your tactics either accept the penalty or realize that it likely wouldn't slow you down from moving in an adrenaline situation. It does give a more stable base and actually is likely to be faster to get into than a squat. If you are just looking for a faster way to shoot (more competition oriented) then realize that everyone would gain that same advantage ...

[Paul Burtchell]

When I first shot IDPA matches I did so thinking it was designed to offer practice in real world defensive skills. I got angry every time I ran into a rule which forced me to do something which would be incredibly stupid in a real world self defense situation. I had the same problem with USPSA matches; they had no bearing on the real world. After going to a few matches, enjoying the trigger time and hating the "that will get me killed!" feeling I figured it out:

competitive shooters are the best shooters. Being the best shooter is an advantage in a gun fight. The shooting sports teach us gun handling and marksmanship skills as well as how to pay attention under stress. They do not teach tactics. Tactics are a separate skill.

Having understood this I can now shoot any shooting sport and enjoy myself. I no longer need to impose my preconception of what a game should be on someone elses game. Just tell me the rules and I can play by them, sometimes be amused by them, and have a great time honing my marksmanship and gun handling skills.

Bravo, on both paragraphs ! ! !

kr

+1

Good reply, Dale.

[Duane Thomas]

Duane, for the typical 55 drum it is still pretty easy (and a lot faster in my experience) to shoot over the top of the bbl.

I agree.

Typically our local matches spell out of pieing the low cover is required or not.

On occasion you'll see a stage where the course designer has specified it's permissible to shoot over low cover. Usually this will be a low wall. Occasionally it'll be something where you could shoot around the side if you wanted, the course designer has just decided he doesn't want people to have to. I love those stages because you're right, the "over the top" thing can be used much faster than "around the side". That doesn't change the fact, of course, the course designer is violating the rules.

I don't see anything wrong with requiring (at least) one knee down. If it's against your tactics either accept the penalty or realize that it likely wouldn't slow you down from moving in an adrenaline situation. It does give a more stable base and actually is likely to be faster to get into than a squat.

That does seem to me contradict what you said in an earlier paragraph. No offense - and I mean that sincerely. In one case you say it's a lot faster in your experience to shoot over the top of cover, in another you say that dropping to a knee is likely to be faster than to squat. At least that's how I'm reading it. (?)

[freeidaho]

On occasion you'll see a stage where the course designer has specified it's permissible to shoot over low cover. Usually this will be a low wall. Occasionally it'll be something where you could shoot around the side if you wanted, the course designer has just decided he doesn't want people to have to. I love those stages because you're right, the "over the top" thing can be used much faster than "around the side". That doesn't change the fact, of course, the course designer is violating the rules.

Duane,

Unless I am reading the rules incorrectly, low cover means one knee down and that is all. It does not mean shooting around and it does not mean shooting over. The COF designer is free to specify, or to leave it open.

kr

[kdmoore]

I didn't mean to mix the knee down with the over the top.

I merely meant that target splits are slightly faster when shooting over the top (with a knee down) ... if you are given a choice.

I didn't realize that some folks considered low cover to always be vertical, and this thread has me wondering if we need to ask HQ to either define it explicitly so, or to continue to allow MD's to define it on a case by case basis.