Knee-down why?

[RickB]

Is someone contending that as long as "low cover" is specified, it's OK to have your legs hanging out? I've never seen, nor heard of "100% of lower body" being waived because it's "low cover".

[lugnut]

Yep- it's not specified for low cover as in the manual. I've asked an experienced SO trainer and they agreed it doesn't specify that your lower body has to be 100% behind low cover- only 50% of your upper body. Now whether or not the rules are vague and/or it's written poorly I can't say. There are many things that aren't clear in the rule book. I always try to keep my lower body 100% behind cover but I personally don't believe it's required per current rules.

Is someone contending that as long as "low cover" is specified, it's OK to have your legs hanging out? I've never seen, nor heard of "100% of lower body" being waived because it's "low cover".

[rvb]

Is someone contending that as long as "low cover" is specified, it's OK to have your legs hanging out? I've never seen, nor heard of "100% of lower body" being waived because it's "low cover".

Yes, that's what I'm contending. I haven't studied grammar since grade school, but that's how I read the rules.

It's all a minor debate, I might add. Kinda hard to keep >50% of your torso behind cover with "your legs hanging out" as you put it. As I see it, if you are behind low cover, leaning hard to "pie" and you happen to stick your opposite leg out for balance and the leg becomes somewhat exposed, that's making the best of a bad situation (minimal cover) and at least your torso is covered at the expense of exposing your pinky toe. Balance on a knee is much harder than when standing.

Some other points raised during this thread... I don't see anything in the book that says you HAVE to pie low cover. Over the top is ok unless otherwise specified, imo. Best bet is to design the stage to MAKE the shooter do what you want. The closest I can find in the book is A general rule of thumb is that the shooter will have to lean out of cover more for each target he engages (slicing the pie). pg43 I don't see why shooting over a barrel/fire-hydrant/car/55gal-drum can't be an exception to the "general rule of thumb" for cover.

It's one of those rules I ask the RO/MD before shooting a stage cause it's different EVERYWHERE you go (which drives me insane).

-rvb

[kdmoore]

Some other points raised during this thread... I don't see anything in the book that says you HAVE to pie low cover.

I was with you until this point.

I'm sure you know this quote, but I'll post it for the sake of my comments

"More than 50% of the shooter’s upper torso must be behind cover

while engaging threat targets and/or reloading. For low cover, one

knee must be on the ground and for vertical cover such as a

wall/barricade, 100% of the shooter’s legs and feet must be behind

cover.

A general rule of thumb is that the shooter will have to lean out of

cover more for each target he engages (slicing the pie). The

distance between the threat targets will determine how much more

the shooter must poke out in order to engage the targets. A shooter

who engages more than one target from the same position has not

been using cover properly."

To me, the only time verticle cover and low cover are differentiated clearly is in

"For low cover, one knee must be on the ground and for vertical cover such as a

wall/barricade, 100 of the shooter’s legs and feet must be behind cover."

I read it as all other times cover is used, it covers both types.

YMMV.

[RickB]

If you are shooting around cover, high or low, you must pie. If you are shooting over cover, you can't pie, but you still must use Tactical Priority (near-to-far, in this case) unless Tac Sequence is specified.

The rule book says 100% of the lower body must be covered by vertical cover, and for low cover, one knee on the ground. Any cover that is being pied is "vertical" cover, whether you are kneeling or not, and you can't expose your lower body - on the side you are shooting around - when using vertical cover. The language seems clear enough, and I can't see how it could be construed to mean that the requirement for keeping the lower body covered is waived because your knee is down?

I generally ignore whatever is going on on the other side. That is, you could use a 2x4 as vertical cover, as I'm only concerned with that line created by the edge of the cover that's between the gun and the target.

[Ted Murphy]

If you are shooting around cover, high or low, you must pie. If you are shooting over cover, you can't pie, but you still must use Tactical Priority (near-to-far, in this case) unless Tac Sequence is specified.

FWIW, the CoF is what stipulates having to shoot over or around low cover. Targets have to be engaged in tactical priority, that is what the rules have to say about it. If you engage over the low cover, Tactical Priority is Near to Far. If you engage around low cover, tactical priority is slicing the pie.

It is up to the Cof to say how it wants it done.

Ted

[rvb]

Some other points raised during this thread... I don't see anything in the book that says you HAVE to pie low cover.

I was with you until this point.

I'm sure you know this quote, but I'll post it for the sake of my comments

"More than 50% ...

...

A general rule of thumb is that the shooter will have to lean out of

cover more for each target he engages (slicing the pie). ..."

To me, the only time verticle cover and low cover are differentiated clearly is in

"For low cover, one knee must be on the ground and for vertical cover such as a

wall/barricade, 100 of the shooter’s legs and feet must be behind cover."

I read it as all other times cover is used, it covers both types.

YMMV.

So, unless specified otherwise in the course description, why can't I shoot over the top and shoot tac-priority near-to-far vs pie'ing? How does that violate "A general rule of thumb" (ie not a hard and fast RULE)? If 50% of upper torso covered, knee down, [and for the sake of limiting the argument to pie'ing I'll even say 100% legs] then why am I wrong? WHERE in the book does it say I HAVE to pie low cover?.

-rvb

Edited October 24, 2008 by rvb

[rvb]

On occasion you'll see a stage where the course designer has specified it's permissible to shoot over low cover. Usually this will be a low wall. Occasionally it'll be something where you could shoot around the side if you wanted, the course designer has just decided he doesn't want people to have to. I love those stages because you're right, the "over the top" thing can be used much faster than "around the side". That doesn't change the fact, of course, the course designer is violating the rules.

Duane, can you please elaborate? What rule?

I searched the rule book for "low" and only found two places where low cover was defined and once it was mentioned in the course design section where it mentions putting carpet down and clearing rocks when designing low cover.

Thanks,

--rvb

[Ted Murphy]

? WHERE in the book does it say I HAVE to pie low cover?.

The stage briefing and/or CoF description is what tells you.

[rvb]

? WHERE in the book does it say I HAVE to pie low cover?.

The stage briefing and/or CoF description is what tells you.

You didn't quote the first thing I said... "So, unless specified otherwise in the course description, ...."

So does that mean we are in agreement on at least this issue that the RULES say nothing about having to pie low cover if you can shoot over it?

-rvb

[RickB]

? WHERE in the book does it say I HAVE to pie low cover?.

The stage briefing and/or CoF description is what tells you.

You didn't quote the first thing I said... "So, unless specified otherwise in the course description, ...."

So does that mean we are in agreement on at least this issue that the RULES say nothing about having to pie low cover if you can shoot over it?

-rvb

Unless otherwise specified, targets are engaged in Tactical Priority. If a procedure says, "engage x-y-z using low cover", without further elaboration, and the cover is 3 feet tall, then I'd say you need to ask the MD if they expect you to pie around, or if shooting over is allowed. The procedure should specify, as otherwise you could expect to have an option. Either way, keep at least one knee down, and keep both knees behind cover!

[Duane Thomas]

Duane, can you please elaborate? What rule?

What I meant was the idea that if there is low cover (most commonly represented by a barrel) you must shoot around the side instead of over the top. But from what I'm hearing here, that may not be the inflexible rule I thought it was. Or any rule at all, actually.

[rledwards]

I shoot several sanctioned matches every year and have shot multiple Nationals. Have not seen one yet where the shooter would be allowed to not keep 100 percent of feet and legs behind cover, be it vertical cover or low cover.

--Lin