USPSA scoring of multigun

[chendersby]

OK all you USPSA multigun bashers

I hear over and over that comstock scoring does not work for Multigun events. I would like to hear specific reasons why, because it seems pretty simple to me why it does work.

[M ammo]

I am not a USPSA scoring official.

But IMG scoring is fast and easy, and you know how you did.

I shoot 3 Gun with IDPA scoring, and that is more accuracy intensive, shooting,, but that scoring is also fast and easy. And time is the score,, very easy to see how you are doing.

And you don’t have to have an accountant to score them. A cheap Calculator works,

USPSA scoring works, it is just more intensive./more work.

Most of us do this for fun, and we want to shoot More! and do less paper work.

[Merlin Orr]

Chris

If (most) everyone who has been exposed to or involved with the scoring system state they don't like it... Does it really make a difference why?

If any organization that has a member ship..and the membership states over and over again they are unhappy with "something," does it not make sense to find something that a general consensus of approval can be reached upon and then utilize "whatever" that might be - rather than continue to flog the dead horse...?

It appears to me that this discussion has been done and the lines are long since drawn. Why continue with (what appears to me to be) a useless discussion of this polarized issue?

[Flexmoney]

It's good to see an Area Director (and 3-gun shooter) asking for input.

I am curious too. The scoring works for hundreds of clubs that shoot pistol matches ever weekend. What make it a bad fit for MG ?

[Religious Shooter]

I hear over and over that comstock scoring does not work for Multigun events. I would like to hear specific reasons why, because it seems pretty simple to me why it does work.

It works but it is very cumbersome and significantly more admin intensive than the other scoring systems.

A big hurdle is the need to assign different power factors to each gun (and different points). This requires differentation on the score sheet for each target so the proper score can be assigned to a hit.

I'm going to say it again... use a unified power factor between the three guns. If 2 out of the 3 guns shoots major the shooter scores major with all guns. If only 1 out of 3 guns make major they shoot minor.

If you have a unified power factor... you don't need to have special score sheets or have to say that the target was a rifle target vs. a pistol or shotgun when scoring. It becomes just like a regular USPSA pistol match.

[Benelli Chick]

I don't mind USPSA scoring, but...

1) You can't score the match with a calculator. You MUST use a program. Many DO understand the points divided by score equal a hit factor. The top hit factor is given the total number of points on the stage (with the exception of standards stages) and the other hit factors are figured on a percentage basis, many do not. Most people with a clue about excel or some other spreadsheet type programs can write a program for time plus. That's just not possible for USPSA rules.

2) If a shooter minors after the match starts, the scorekeeper must go in and manually change the point penalties for all the stages with the newly minored gun. In pistol, it's not a big deal. You change it in the set up and the program automatically changes it everywhere. In 3-Gun with the 1 point penalties for any minor non-A hit...well, it's not pretty! (Someone could probably rewrite the program so that you could enter the power factor for each gun, but it's not that way right now!)

3) To use USPSA scoring, you really need to have dedicated score sheets for each stage. Dandy, cute, but costly and it makes reasonable, last-minute stage changes more of a problem. You can't add something to make for a better balance at the last minute. You have to have your stages perfect before they hit the dirt.

4) It also makes choice targets kind of a pain for RO's. San Angelo handled it pretty well by marking targets with P or R as they are scored. It works, but it's a challenge. And RO's are only human and make mistakes sometimes and it's not easy to remember which was which! If you don't have a great grasp, it makes choice targets a mess. (Sadly, USPSA doesn't like giving people many choices anyway, so maybe this is a moot point! )

In general, I find time-plus neutralize scoring easier for RO's and for shooters to understand. As a shooter, I can look at my time minus whatever my stupid mistake was and see how high I would have placed! It's just easier to compare.

Now we can argue about straight time or 100 points per stage, or more points per stage for more guns, but that's the least of it. It's cumbersome and if you can't duplicate the computations on your own, it's really too complicated. I've shot IPSC/USPSA pistol for about 12 years, and some people I shoot with still have no idea how the scores are figured!

Those are just some of the things that are not really desirable, for me, about USPSA scoring.

I like my RO's to be able to glance and move on. We have a lot more distance and more targets than I've seen at Nationals. USPSA can be very tedious under these circumstances. 16 paper targets in a small pistol berm are not that hard to look at and score. 20 paper targets over 80 - 100 yards takes too much time! For accuracy, we use baby targets and cover and distance, but we have room for that at Rocky Mountain!

Hope that helps!

Denise

[LChico]

I think Comstock scoring works fine. I like it.

The problem is major & minor power factor when you have 3 guns, and how it impacts the multigun scoring both on the stage & in stats. Having some stages where you need to document which targets were engaged with a minor caliber firearm and which were shot with the major caliber weapon complicates scoring on the actual stage. Increased time to score a stage -- and increased training for staff, if you want them to get it right.

In stats, you typically score everyone as major and then subtract the correct amount of points to reflect which rounds fired from the minor caliber weapons and impacted the B, C & D zones. Hmmmm. The program does not do this automatically. So if you have a 30 round stage instead of simply typing in A=15, C=10 and D=5 and then keying in the time, you first need to sort the score sheets. I get a handful of score sheets for the 30 round pistol & rifle stage. Any shooters with rounds that will need to be scored minor should be sorted into a separate pile.

Shooter X is shooting minor rifle & major pistol. I can ignore the A hits for now. I need to know within his C & D hits, which were shot with the rifle. Say 5 of the C hits and 2 of the D hits were shot with the rifle. Okay, 5 x 1 plus 2 X 1 = 7. Now, I can enter the same score as above (A=15, C=10 and D=5) but I need to remember to add 7 in the "additional penalty" box to score this shooter correctly.

Shooter Y is shooting minor rifle & minor pistol. He may be a law enforcement officer shooting his duty gear. I can ignore the A hits for now. Again, I look at the C & D hits. Okay, 10 x 1 plus 5 X 1 = 15. Now, I can enter the same score as above (A=15, C=10 and D=5) but I need to remember to add 15 in the "additional penalty" box to score this shooter correctly.

Shooter Z is shooting major rifle & major pistol. I can enter the same score as above (A=15, C=10 and D=5) and I can ignore the "additional penalty" box to score this shooter correctly.

Cumbersome at best.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

2008 Ft Benning 3 Gun Statistician.

Edited to correct my math!

Edited October 8, 2008 by LChico

[Jack T]

Chris,

We have to work to improve the system. I see Linda is/was on here and she has a wealth of knowldege on the system I use, but here is where I am at when I do Multigun Matches at the local level.

I am kinda like a one man show, I set up the match and tear down the match, so others can come in, shoot, have fun and hit the road. I also do all the scores. I use the World Class Steel Scorer Progam (US Steel Shoot). I set it up as a time plus score like IMGA. It has it's flaws, but it streamlines the scoring process both during the match and when I have to compile the results. I don't have to have a ton of score sheets, and maintain a file cabinet of historical score sheets/documents. Linda told me how to also figure out the shooters percentages, but I haven't done that yet. This is the same program we use for the US Steel Nationals. Dave Olhasso developed this program.

I have also started using it for our Handgun Only matches. All the members love it. Some people complain that two hits on paper or one "A" does not reward accuracy, but my reply to them is that it is up to them to have the visual discipline/patience to shoot "A"s. Don't blame it on the scoring system. Plus, I am a firm believer you can achieve a proper degree of difficulty thru good stage design and I do it without no shoot targets!!!!!!!!!!!! Did I mention how much I hate them once before?

Personally, I do not see the need of having Major/Minor scoring. Keep everything the same accross the board. If you can knock down the steel, then you are good to go. (9mm calibrated) There is too much controversy concerning the chrono within USPSA anyway. Get rid of it. But of course that is another subject.

I am not a computer guy so I want simplicity. Most of the people that are in favor of comstock (MV) don't do the scoring. Let them work at stats and see how much they enjoy comstock vs time plus.

Regards,

Jack

Edited October 8, 2008 by Jack T

[mlmiller1]

I guess I'm in the minority. I help design, setup, tear down, etc, & I do all the scoring at our club & I like the Comstock scoring. I guess I like it because I like shooting that way. The one hit A or two hits somewhere or the two hits C or above or........ or........ or.......... whatever confuse me. Obviously I am simple minded. Give me simple two hits(or whatever is designed in the stage) & give me credit for the hits I get. I also like minor vs major scoring. Even with the multi-gun. Recently I shot a little multi-gun match that had a variation of the time plus scoring. The match was great fun but I had several targets with A/D hits & got time added to scores because that day, they said you had to have two C hits or above. An A & a D hit was not good enough to neutralize or whatever. Also, the score sheets showed 5 seconds added for each non neutralized target but they actually added 10 seconds. They couldn't even keep track of the confusion. They were great folks & put on an awesome little match but I realized again why I don't like time plus.

I do understand what Linda & Denise had to say & I appreciate their opinions greatly. Theirs are the first opinions I've heard that made any sense whatsoever why they don't like Comstock so I can see the other side. However, for our matches, at least now, we will keep shooting comstock. Some day we may adapt another method but it won't be for my sake as the score guy.

I will shoot time plus matches & have fun so I'm not that kind of "I don't like it" guy but if I'm scoring & given the choice or if I'm asked my opinion, I'll go for Comstock. Also, in my opinion, you can do scores on a calculator fairly easily but it is slow. I've done a couple of matches up where I work with just a calculator & not the program but they weren't high attendance matches. You just need several pieces of paper to keep up with things on.

MLM

[barrysuperhawk]

Hello, my name is Barry and I have run my own 3 gun matches for 7 years now at 2 different clubs. I used standard USPSA scoring for that whole time, almost 100 matches, until this year. This year I switched to the time plus neutralize system as an experement. I won't go back. For me, I reduced the job of running scores from a days long process to under an hour in some cases. It's easier for the competetors, easier for the RO's, it speeds up the match tremendously, and the competetors can know how they did on a stage before all of the targets are pasted. Scoring on 50 round field courses takes 30 seconds. IPSC competetors are pretty ruthless with every piece of equipment that they use - does it work or is it gone... Why shouldn't the same standards be applied to scoring. Here is a way that works better, use it..

[J-Ho]

I think Mark has a point. Comstock scoring seems to work ok for multi gun. I've shot a couple of his matches. But I still like an IMG type match more. I also shoot a IDPA-ish match. Of the three, I like Comstock the least. However liking USPSA multigun the least still puts it as my third favorite activity. It'll all fun. I think Mark hit it on the head. He is used to the scoring, so it works for him. I like the fact that you are asking specifics about what does or doesn't work. My hope is that USPSA multigun will catch up in popularity with the "outlaw" matches. As long as the outlaw matches grow too. the more the merrier!

I say stick to the current rules. Make challenging, fun stages and see what happens. I like having the different 3gun games.

To me, the biggest problem with USPSA rules is power factor. The outlaws just run heavy metal for the big guns and everything else for the mousefarters. There are so many more things to worry about ,in a 3 gun match vs a pistol match, that not worrying about PF is much easier and more enjoyable.

anybody got 98 cents in change?

[LChico]

I'll say it again -- I like Comstock.

Mark is right that it is not a problem with under 50 shooters. If I only had small, local matches to score, I'd use it. How do you think I figured out where the problems were?

Denise and I are talking about matches with 200 + shooters: People who have planes to catch and are waiting for the prize table to start. At Ft Benning we have the added problem of limited daylight: the match is in December. Anything that slows me down is unacceptable. Anything that increases the margin of error significantly is not going to be used.

Ironically, USPSA will let you score the local matches with Time plus, but wants you to use EZWinScore for major events. This is backwards from how I prefer to work multigun stats.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

2008 Ft Benning 3 Gun Statistician

[J-Ho]

I'll say it again -- I like Comstock.

Mark is right that it is not a problem with under 50 shooters. If I only had small, local matches to score, I'd use it. How do you think I figured out where the problems were?

Denise and I are talking about matches with 200 + shooters: People who have planes to catch and are waiting for the prize table to start. At Ft Benning we have the added problem of limited daylight: the match is in December. Anything that slows me down is unacceptable. Anything that increases the margin of error significantly is not going to be used.

Ironically, USPSA will let you score the local matches with Time plus, but wants you to use EZWinScore for major events. This is backwards from how I prefer to work multigun stats.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

2008 Ft Benning 3 Gun Statistician

I think her avatar is perfect for this. Listen to her for the force is strong with her. Well except that part about liking comstock. Even yoda can have bad opinions.

[kellyn]

I like Comstock as well but I know many of the shooters shooting matches do not really understand it. Comstock, especially in the low hit factor stages of multigun, usually requires the shooter to shoot good points. But time plus is easier to understand and rapidly figure out. I, however, DESPISE the "2 D hits is called good shooting" scoring. I think the Horner method is the best balance of speed and accuracy for multigun but I realize many do not. Having competed at the Blue Ridge 3 gun, I can categorically state that this method is not a "bullseye" scoring system. It simply balances accuracy with speed as opposed to simply favoring speed as does the commonly applied time plus scoring of most 3 gun matches.

In theory, I like major/minor but I don't in practice, especially when applied to pistols in 3 gun matches. In every other 3 gun match, the shooter can shoot a 9mm, in fact they should to be competitive. At USPSA Multigun, you NEED a .40. For the sake of consistency with everyone else, I wish that USPSA would ditch major/minor in Multigun so the competitor does not have to have 2 pistols: a .40 for USPSA and 9mm for outlaw. Plus, in these days of increased costs, it is much more economical to shoot a 9mm. And as many has previously posted, ditching major/minor makes multigun stages easier to score as you don't have to worry about major pistol and minor rifle distinctions.

[TRUBL]

Chris,

If it ain't broke don't fix it. The Scoring of the USPSA multi gun was (or is), for the most part insignificant. Sure....it helps that RO's understand the scoring, and even the score keepers. But over all....from a shooting perspective is it a small part of the over all picture. I believe it can work, and can work good. IMHO are there better ways? Yes....but it's not going to be a show stopper if a match I want to go to is comstock type scoring, vickers, or some other type of time plus.....I'll plan accordingly. The MD of the match can look at the match and determine how to go as well.....he/she SHOULD be an informed person knowing the pitfalls of each type of scoring system dependent on their situation. I do not believe that there is one 'perfect' scoring system....they all have their pitfalls.

More so....look at the management of the match, the course design, facilities, the little perks, the flow of the match, the RO's......you get all that stuff nailed down and the scoring is going to fall in line just fine. I believe that the key ingredient of a great match is the heart of the MD/RM and the help....if someone has a passion to put on the best match they can, to give their customer a good time, they will succeed. If they go out there to 'just' put on yet another match....that is the worng person to do the job.

That all being said....if it were up to me? I'd go with the scoring system that creates the least amount of headaches for my RO's and the scorekeepers.

Edited October 8, 2008 by TRUBL

[lmccrock]

So, fix EZWS for multi-gun mixed PF and things are better? Well, except for the 9/40/all-PF-score-the-same thing. That would be a change in USPSA philosophy. One thing at a time.

Lee

[kurtm]

What ever happened to the San Angelo scoring system that Kelly McCoy came up with and was being used by USPSA?? It worked, kept comstock, recognised major/minor, and was used only once as far as I can tell. I don't care how things are scored as long as it is consistent. In the end the fastest most accurate shooter will prevail! I for one like the major/minor hits vs time...but no one except Kelly seems to have figured out a system yet to do it for a real MULTI-GUN match, although I bet Linda has a few ways. KurtM

[cautery]

I am not a multi-gunner, so I probably do not understand all the issues involved, but it would seem to me that the following might simplify things some...

You are either shooting major or minor... period. If all the weapons you use make major, you are scored major. If ANY of the weapons you use go minor, you are shooting minor...

[wgnoyes]

What ever happened to the San Angelo scoring system that Kelly McCoy ...

It's still in use, and that's the manual process that was used to score the nationals in 2006-2008 (based on the odd penalty numbers I find in the stage results of those matches), and that's what Linda has been talking about.

Edited October 8, 2008 by wgnoyes

[RiggerJJ]

Chris,

Its not the USPSA scoring method (San Angelo) at USPSA 3 Gun Nationals that is broken...

It's non-3 gunners with no clue how to run a major 3 gun match running the show with NO SUPPORT from headquarters. A EXPERIENCED 3 GUN MD needs to step up and do the job right. Yes, an uphill battle for sure, but that is gonna be what it will take to get USPSA 3 gun nationals on the major hit list.

jj

PS; enjoyed shooting with you Chris!

Edited October 8, 2008 by kellyn
Not that I disagree with the sentiment but edited for language

[chendersby]

Chris,

Its not the USPSA scoring method (San Angelo) at USPSA 3 Gun Nationals that is broken...

Its non-3 gunners with no clue how to run a major 3 gun match running the show with NO SUPPORT from headquarters. A EXPERIENCED 3 GUN MD needs to step up and do the job right. This fictious person should have the nads to tell headquarters to shove their weak prize table and anything else they want to so they can put on the match that they know they can do, DESPITE headquarters. Yes, an uphill battle for sure, but that is gonna be what it will take to get USPSA 3 gun nationals on the major hit list.

jj

PS; enjoyed shooting with you Chris!

Really did not want to open that can of worms here.

Almost sounds like you are volunteering?

Seriously, enjoyed shooting with you guys also and believe it or not our talk after the match was really helpful also.

[gose]

What ever happened to the San Angelo scoring system that Kelly McCoy came up with and was being used by USPSA?? It worked, kept comstock, recognised major/minor, and was used only once as far as I can tell. I don't care how things are scored as long as it is consistent. In the end the fastest most accurate shooter will prevail! I for one like the major/minor hits vs time...but no one except Kelly seems to have figured out a system yet to do it for a real MULTI-GUN match, although I bet Linda has a few ways. KurtM

We used San Angelo at our last multi-gun match, and even if it is slightly more cumbersome than time plus, it's not that bad. I didn't run stats, but the guy that did didnt seem to think that it was that big of a deal either.

I like the recognition of minor/major as well and I'd rather take the slight pain to use San Angelo over time plus.

[kurtm]

Cool I'm glad to see that it is still used I always like it. I don't think J.J. was vollenteering as he runs one of the biggest 3-guns right now, but I bet he would help with ideas and thoughts if asked! KurtM

[Jack T]

I am going to recant my prior post after some thought from more of a shooter point of view.

At the local level when I am running a match, the temperature is 101 with 98% humidity, I want to score the targets fast and get moving to the next shooter. Can't beat time plus scoring. No confusion on the part of calling the hits, recording the results and the computing the scores at the end of the match is easy.

The best representation of a shooters ability is Comstock Scoring in my opinion.

I can smoke a run and gun rifle stage shooting time plus scoring and have a top 10 finish with Time Plus. Score that same run with Comstock Scoring and I will drop so many points I will be lucky if I finish in the top 20. Minor power factor and Comstock Scoring will eat me up on the rifle.

Comstock requires more administrative work, but it can work. Just needs a little adjusting for Multigun/3-Gun.

Jack

[ken hebert]

Adjust time plus to reward accuracy: two a's clean, A/C or A/D clean, two C's +1 sec, 2D's +1sec, C/D +1 sec. You get the two anywhere to neutralize, but with a bonus for accuracy/ penalty for crappy hozing.