Multigun Nationals Feedback Thread

[lmccrock]

If the Multi-gun Nationals were more than a day's drive away, I would not go. I suspect a number of attendees think the same. For 2 years, they have been within that distance, so I was there. East Coast and West Coast Regionals would have to include a Central Regional, and then they start to look like Area championships, which some Areas already have.

Very few people have access to ranges where we have the ability to practice long range shooting (Past 100/200 yards), so it is not a factor for the other 98% of the shooters.

A big problem with rifle stages is that they are often pistol stages shot with a rifle. That is ok to test speed. However, a Nationals match must test accuracy, and 100/200 yards is just the beginning to test accuracy.

Lee

[outerlimits]

numbers here are indisputable. wasn't able to capture all, but here's a representative view.

i will say alot of complaints for the past two MG nationals were the stages. i didn't shoot those, but albany, vegas & reno in the prior 3 years had great stages.

3g.pdf

[vsound]

Just an added point to the issue of long ranges, roughly 30 miles to the south side of Shreveport is the Long Range Alley range ( www.lra-tti.com ). Plenty of bays for close stuff (some going out to 100 yds, 75 yds, and most probably 30-40 yds max), an assault deck that goes out to ~500 yds, and a 1000-yd range. Nothing against the Clark's range, but Long Range Alley would have been a primo location, and it would have only been 15 minutes more drive each day to get there.

[Sako92S]

Does someone have complete match results? I only saw winners of the match at USPSA website and I don't not have a code to download them.

I just wanted to know how our boys Mika an Mikael from Finland did on that match.

[Flexmoney]

Does someone have complete match results? I only saw winners of the match at USPSA website and I don't not have a code to download them.

I just wanted to know how our boys Mika an Mikael from Finland did on that match.

This won't work? (It's the non-password version...without last names...which was a privicy issue for some. Full name version is in the members area.)

http://www.uspsa.org/mr/match_index.php?ye...l_Championships

[Jack T]

If the Multi-gun Nationals were more than a day's drive away, I would not go. I suspect a number of attendees think the same. For 2 years, they have been within that distance, so I was there. East Coast and West Coast Regionals would have to include a Central Regional, and then they start to look like Area championships, which some Areas already have.

Very few people have access to ranges where we have the ability to practice long range shooting (Past 100/200 yards), so it is not a factor for the other 98% of the shooters.

A big problem with rifle stages is that they are often pistol stages shot with a rifle. That is ok to test speed. However, a Nationals match must test accuracy, and 100/200 yards is just the beginning to test accuracy.

Lee

I totally disagree with you and let me clarify my stance here. You can test accuracy from 5 yards to 100 yards depending on the difficulty of the target. Going out past 200 yards we are now dealing with balastics. Some matches are pushing past the maxium effective range of the AR. Plus, we are talking practical (as much as practical means). Those of us that do not have access to ranges past 200 yards have no way of verifying our zero/point of impact out to these distances and there is generally no zero range at the match to verify. The only people that want these distances are the people that have access to long distance ranges, which the majority of the members do not have. This is about fair and equal competiton for all the members. Sometimes you just have to compromise to make it fair and competetive for everybody. There were plenty of stages at this Nationals that tested the accuracy from 100 yards in by using no shoots and limiting the visible "shoot" portion of the target. I got burnt on a few by touching the perfs of the no shoots. (hate em!!)

You do not need 200 plus distances to make a good stage. Proper use of hardcover and good stage design will add plenty of difficulty factor/test of skill/accuracy.

My point of the original statement is that there are many venues capable of hosting a Multigun Nationals and doing an excellent job of it. They just don't have the ranges over 200 yards. Like KirkM said; I would rather shoot an Area 6 match than a USPSA Nationals. There is a reason he made that statement and he is one of the best long range shooters out there.

Edited October 7, 2008 by Jack T

[outerlimits]

i don't mind an occasional house clearing stage with a long gun, but i'd much rather be reaching out and banging flashers beyond 200. from a practical standpoint, you wouldn't likely go into a house clearing with a rifle anyway, just as you would use a pistol on a larue at 200. that is rifle shooting.

[davidwiz]

With all due respect to everyone at USPSA, I will go ahead and say it. I see two problems:

1. We are over administrating every nationals with too many RO's, which adds costs. ie., 3 RO's per stage. Do the math. This is an area that is costing money (taking money away from the match that could be used elsewhere). Not to say we don't need RO's, just saying we need to explore alternatives to 3 per stage.

I think you need at least 3 ROs for a 3-Gun match. One person to run the shooter, one person to run the clipboard, and one person to "manage" the on-deck shooter (especially if you are staging guns). If you have 4 ROs, that is better, as you are better able to manage the responsibilities and give everyone a breather. One of the ROs should be a CRO. Having only 2 ROs for each stage at a 3-Gun match is asking for trouble, IMHO.

When I RO'ed at the Handgun Nationals a few years back in Barry, we had 4 ROs at my stage, and that worked well.

[Jack T]

What happened to the MOR match at the Nationals? This filled the bill for those that wanted to test their skills for long range shooting.

[kimel]

Anyone that thinks that 3 ROs per stage is too many may need to sign up and work a Nationals next year. The object of a Nationals is NOT to pound the staff into the ground. Some small stages can be run by two people, true. But the majority of stages need three or even four to run efficiently.

I worked 2006 Multigun in Albany and we had 4 ROs. One running shooter/timer, one on the clipboard, one pre-loading the next competitor off in a safe location, and one helping wrangle shooters and score part of the stage. This was a long, all 3 guns stage with slug targets out ~50 yards past the last shooting location spread over about 70 yards of width. If you want things to run efficiently and stay on time then you have to have the staff. It also allowed the staff to get a couple lighter shifts in throughout the day by spreading the work around.

[Ara]

Clearly, MG has its unique needs. As I said, we need to EXPLORE alternatives. Breaking it down at a 19 stage handgun nats, for example, you may have roughly 60 RO's alone, not to mention other "paid" staff. That could be anywhere between 20%-30% of the folks there. As far as costs, based on what has been published, we are paying out roughly $50,000-$60,000 for total RO expenses from each handgun Nationals. There are alternatives and my point is that "IF" prize tables, etc, need a boost.....

[kurtm]

Who is this KirkM who is an excellent long range shooter??

Relig, RM3G underwent 3 major staff changes from the M.D. all the way down, in the time you speak of. All of them had their own way of doing things, so we can't be saying that it is good just because it was in only one place. The thing it has and had was an entire staff that undersood/understands 3-gun. All the people who put it on or have put it on activly 3-gun and attend almost all the major 3-gun events and have for years. Now no offence here, but in the times I have been to the Nationals, I haven't recognised but 3 guys who 3-gun with ANY regularity on the staff. How can we expect non 3-gunner,s to put on good 3-gun matches? An antithem to this is Ft. Benning where you will find some of the top 3-gunners in the nation R.O.ing. I think Mr. Trubl said it best, it is the people and they have to understand the proclivities of 3-gun to make it successful. I would much rather see USPSA drop 3-gun all together rather than see all this fighting about it. KurtM

Edited October 7, 2008 by kurtm

[Jack T]

OOPS!! My apology. My fingers type faster than my mind works sometimes. I will print a retraction and give credit where it is due. It is KurtM not the other KirkM who is a great long range shooter (sometimes). I don't impress easy, but when I see you shoot 1" groups at 100 yards with the irons at match cadence, I am impressed.

Regards,

Jack T

[Jack T]

Who is this KirkM who is an excellent long range shooter??

Relig, RM3G underwent 3 major staff changes from the M.D. all the way down, in the time you speak of. All of them had their own way of doing things, so we can't be saying that it is good just because it was in only one place. The thing it has and had was an entire staff that undersood/understands 3-gun. All the people who put it on or have put it on activly 3-gun and attend almost all the major 3-gun events and have for years. Now no offence here, but in the times I have been to the Nationals, I haven't recognised but 3 guys who 3-gun with ANY regularity on the staff. How can we expect non 3-gunner,s to put on good 3-gun matches? An antithem to this is Ft. Benning where you will find some of the top 3-gunners in the nation R.O.ing. I think Mr. Trubl said it best, it is the people and they have to understand the proclivities of 3-gun to make it successful. I would much rather see USPSA drop 3-gun all together rather than see all this fighting about it. KurtM

You bring up a great point. It might be best to put a moratorium on the 3 Gun/Multigun Nationals until such time the USPSA Staff are capable of managing the event properly.

[00bullitt]

I kind of agree on the moratorium for USPSA 3 gun multigun Nats. Keep the Area and State matches though. The "Outlaw" multigun matches carry as much weight if not more than the USPSA Multigun Nats for a ranking anyway especially when you compare attendance between them.

Its either that or USPSA needs to step up and fix the problem with a good solution. That is assuming that they can acknowledge the problem first.

[ap3]

Who is this KirkM who is an excellent long range shooter??

Relig, RM3G underwent 3 major staff changes from the M.D. all the way down, in the time you speak of. All of them had their own way of doing things, so we can't be saying that it is good just because it was in only one place. The thing it has and had was an entire staff that undersood/understands 3-gun. All the people who put it on or have put it on activly 3-gun and attend almost all the major 3-gun events and have for years. Now no offence here, but in the times I have been to the Nationals, I haven't recognised but 3 guys who 3-gun with ANY regularity on the staff. How can we expect non 3-gunner,s to put on good 3-gun matches? An antithem to this is Ft. Benning where you will find some of the top 3-gunners in the nation R.O.ing. I think Mr. Trubl said it best, it is the people and they have to understand the proclivities of 3-gun to make it successful. I would much rather see USPSA drop 3-gun all together rather than see all this fighting about it. KurtM

You bring up a great point. It might be best to put a moratorium on the 3 Gun/Multigun Nationals until such time the USPSA Staff are capable of managing the event properly.

We were at the DPMS Tri-gun challenge this year and a friend of mine said "To me, this is the real multi-gun Nationals". I think he had a good point, so maybe we are better off as USPSA memebers having a moratorium on the MG Nationals. Mike V. is not willing to put out the leadership to make it work, it is costing USPSA money, stretching our hard working RO's, has the most "outlaw" scoring rules and no one seems interested in going anymore. As a business decision if no one is buying your product you either improve your product or get out of business.

When the Kentucky State multi-gun match and Area 6 has more shooters than the Nationals I believe our association money would be better spent to support these types of events if we are dead set on being in the 3gun business.

[TRUBL]

Yes, it appears that HQ is either not wanting to nor willing to invest in Multi Gun. Which is sad. The last good 3 gun Nationals I was at was when it was in Berry, Il. And yes, it was a 3 gun, not a multigun.

The format, I am not to concerned about, heck, I'm not even concerned about the type of scoring used either. It is the Nationals, it is supposed to be the premier event. And should be treated as such. Anything less is a discredit to the USPSA. This is why I can not understand how or why HQ has fallen on it's face for this. Last year, I heard the blame game being played out to which I replied, bottom line.....The prez, the BOD are ultimately responsible for the way a Nationals match is put on. Maybe it's best to let the fat lady sing on the USPSA 3 gun Nationals. But that being said, if they totally drop the ball on 3 gun, meaning not supporting it.....will the Area's follow? and then the Sections?

Keep in mind.....the guys that play the 'outlaw' match game....probably came from USPSA. USPSA has actually fed the 'outlaw' game. If USPSA decides to drop 3 gun.....that can't be good for anyone. MAYBE.....just maybe, some of the more experienced MD's out need to step in and help out the USPSA, and MAYBE, just maybe, the USPSA could accept it.

I am a dyed in the wool 'outlaw' 3 gunner.....but I know where I came from. I'm willing to help.

[Flexmoney]

MAYBE.....just maybe, some of the more experienced MD's out need to step in and help out the USPSA, and MAYBE, just maybe, the USPSA could accept it.

Well said.

[Smoky Bear]

OOPS!! My apology. My fingers type faster than my mind works sometimes. I will print a retraction and give credit where it is due. It is KurtM not the other KirkM who is a great long range shooter (sometimes). I don't impress easy, but when I see you shoot 1" groups at 100 yards with the irons at match cadence, I am impressed.

Regards,

Jack T

Maybe if he shot a scope he could tighten that up to a 1/4" group. Man those iron sight shooters have no standards

[bigbrowndog]

I just received a phone call from a "newby" 3 gunner, that had called me about 2 months or so prior to Nat's, he wanted to know what to expect.

His call was pretty much to say, Trapr everything you told me was "spot on", he also continued to say that his plans are to try and make RM3G next year, and not waste time with USPSA, I told him that its only the Nat's that seems to not receive the attention that t deserves. The State and Area matches that I have been to have always been top notch affairs, but then they are put on by people who participate in 3gun/multigun.

My advice to him originally was to not expect grand things, be prepared for disappointment, this was in regard to the match, Not his equipment or performance. I told him that he should go, though if for no other reason than to see how USPSA thinks about multi/3 gun shooters and how they handle the sport.

Me personally I would MUCH rather see USPSA drop multigun/3 gun than drive it further into the dirt. Their focus seems to be with pistol and they do a great job with it, but there is a reason that people should stick with what they're good at and leave other things to people who can do those.

Given the article that was in the Front Sight, the other day about "outlaw" matches. I would like to see an apology from the author, after the debacle that is USPSA Multigun Nationals.

Trapr

[LChico]

Clearly, MG has its unique needs. As I said, we need to EXPLORE alternatives. Breaking it down at a 19 stage handgun nats, for example, you may have roughly 60 RO's alone, not to mention other "paid" staff. That could be anywhere between 20%-30% of the folks there. As far as costs, based on what has been published, we are paying out roughly $50,000-$60,000 for total RO expenses from each handgun Nationals. There are alternatives and my point is that "IF" prize tables, etc, need a boost.....

I don't think most of the posts here indicate that the RO staff, or the funds supporting the staff, was excessive. Many are praising the hard work of the staff and only lamenting that they seemed to have inconsistent experience with Multi-gun major matches. Rather, it seems that the majority of posts would prefer that the USPSA Multigun Nationals were an Event (with a capital E!), like the other National Championships and they are looking for evidence that USPSA plans to devote the same energy and planning to multigun as they do for pistol Nationals. The complaints about costs are because they did not see the "bang for the buck" that they get from some section or Area multigun matches.

Relig, RM3G underwent 3 major staff changes from the M.D. all the way down, in the time you speak of. All of them had their own way of doing things, so we can't be saying that it is good just because it was in only one place. The thing it has and had was an entire staff that undersood/understands 3-gun. All the people who put it on or have put it on activly 3-gun and attend almost all the major 3-gun events and have for years. Now no offence here, but in the times I have been to the Nationals, I haven't recognised but 3 guys who 3-gun with ANY regularity on the staff. How can we expect non 3-gunner,s to put on good 3-gun matches? An antithem to this is Ft. Benning where you will find some of the top 3-gunners in the nation R.O.ing. I think Mr. Trubl said it best, it is the people and they have to understand the proclivities of 3-gun to make it successful. I would much rather see USPSA drop 3-gun all together rather than see all this fighting about it. KurtM

And it is not just at Ft Benning! One of the really great things about multi-gun (as compared to "Pistol only matches") is that nearly all of the top shooters have a ton of experience working at matches.

At Ft Benning, starting in 2006, we decided to recruit experienced staff only. Literally, everyone on the staff that year was questioned about their experience at working major matches. I had to turn down offers of help from shooters who had no major 3 gun match experience. When we had our 30 match staff, fully 15 of them had been match directors of multigun matches at a state or regional level.

It strikes me that you need more staff & experienced 3 gun staff. Eliminating staff to save a couple of bucks is not going to improve the quality of the match.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

2008 Ft Benning 3 Gun Statistician

[Sestock]

In reading this thread, it is clear to me that the USPSA President should take most of the heat. It is his job to make sure that national match are put on in a organized and professional manner. If he is not willing to do this, he should not take a salary or resign.

[Flexmoney]

This thread is here so that folks can provide some feedback (and maybe vent a wee bit).

We don't need to head into politics or agendas (which are against the forum rules). Let's keep it on track.

Thanks,

- Admin.

[Religious Shooter]

Since everybody is pointing fingers... I'm going to do the same and say it's the vendor fault.

I've never seen this much drama after an MG Nationals.

Basically the same USPSA staff and BOD was active at the previous years' matches. And yet you didn't see this much hate after the Reno, Las Vegas and Albany match.

What's the difference if not the vendor?

I mean who designed the stages? ... the vendor or USPSA staff?

Who's abandonment boxes were used? ... the vendor's or USPSA's?

Who required the shooters to tear down? ... the vendor or USPSA staff?

etc...

I know it's hard to put on a match and all. But is this really all 100% USPSA's fault?

I don't see why you would have a moratorium on the MG Nationals when all you would have to do is to get a more able vendor to put on the match.

[Benelli Chick]

So I looked in the Multi-Gun Rules to find out about this "no awards by class" thing. I'm too stupid to be able to find it. I know there were class awards last year... Again, it was one of the positives for USPSA, less quick shooters got awards, too. Top C etc. So why cut back on them? Then again, why cut back on ladies or Heavy Metal?

This is what I found about awards:

The award and/or prize protocol for a multi-gun match must be clearly published in relevant materials, including entry forms and match books, if any. However, because of the complexities involved in combining the use of dissimilar firearm types within a single competition, the distribution of awards and/or prizes by firearm type (i.e., handgun-specific awards, rifle-specific awards, etc) is prohibited. Instead, awards and/or prizes will only be distributed according to placement in the combined multi-gun division standings.

Does anyone know where the "no class awards" came about? I'm just kind of interested!

Denise