Big Match prizes

[steel1212]

There is no "inequity" with the random draw as everyone has the same chance in winning whatever prize is selected. By order of finish is fine, most matches are that way. However, as stated above a winner in one Division gets a prize worth $2300 and a winner in another Division gets $500. Why go to these matches just to pillage a prize table?

Maybe because you think that you "deserve" something because you worked harder, trained harder, and shot more? As a sponsor who gets 300+ requests a year, we look for more sales and more publicity so that we have the profit to give back to the industry. As stated earlier this mentality breeds greed and pushes sponsors away from helping. Sponsors want more sales and more customers and the Top Dogs have everything they need.

Am I a Democrat? Hell no, I believe in capitolism to the core. Do I want to spread the wealth? Hell YES! The 50% winner of a new piece of equipment will treasure that equipment and tell everyone how great the company was that sponsored it. if it is a gun, it will probably be kept as a keepsake forever continually giving the promotion back to the sponsor that we all hoped for and wanted. A top shooter that wins a $750 gun, baa, sell it for $400 as he wants the cash and will not do any promotion whatsoever. Who is perpetuating the sport? The newbies and 50% shooters, the top guys are staying around for the thrill and fun, those under 50%, well honestly speaking, many are destined to find another sport......

I am not saying that everyone should change to a random raffle prize distribution, I just gave you the defense of why we run our matches that way. I also do not think that all matches should run the smae scoring nor have all the same stage design. What makes America great and keeps our shooting sports alive is change, innovation, and freedom to think outside the box. If you do not like a way a match runs, a type of scoring system is used, or the way a prize table is distributed, just stay home and vote with your wallet.

Bill Sahlberg

Marketing Director

MGM Targets

www.mgmtargets.com

1-208-989-7511

"This may rub some people the wrong way with this philosophy, but really what does the "Top Shooter" really need? Another gun to sell? Another scope to sell? An unwanted Gift Certificate for somethingg that he already has? This game is NOT about the best shooters as much as it is about bringing MORE shooters into the sport. Don't forget here, the Top Shooters have the same chance of winning that AR15 as does the first time shooter".

Let me get this straight. If I read you right your saying random draw is better because it will bring in more shooters do to the chance of being able to win a 2300$ JP rifle? I can see that. What is going to suck is the guy that wins, say Tac gets a plaque and a 15$ zippo. That just doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling. I mean 2285$ swing is quite a bit don't ya think? Have a custom gun in a raffle or something but leave it at that.

I'm kind of new to the sport, <3 years, the one big match that I stayed for the prize table awarded the winners. GM-D, then order of finish. Only problem was is they had a limited/L10 table, open table, production table, revo table, etc. I think you take everything and put it on one table. Winners of their division, starting with the division with the most in it. Then 6 GMs starting with the division with the most in it. After that order of finish.

I'm sorry this is a competition, reward winners. If your a C class shooter and didn't win your class, but came in 2nd, and 56th down and get recoil springs and 1st C gets a 250$ gift cert and your pissed? Then try harder next time and WIN YOUR CLASS. If your 2nd Master and 1st C gets a 250$ gift cert and you get recoil springs and your pissed. Then try harder next time and WIN YOUR CLASS. It really irks me when the uper classes, usually GM/M, get pissed off when the winner of a lower class gets to go before them. Yeah, I know there are sandbaggers but you know how you get over that, WIN YOUR CLASS. Your not shooting against C class shooters your shooting against other masters.

All that being said, I'll go to any major match I can with in driving distance table or no table, my goal for the match...WIN MY CLASS....Later division, but for now, my class will do.

Edited September 17, 2008 by steel1212

[bigbrowndog]

Bill, I have to disagree with you on several points. first of all upper level shooters assist sponsors with product ALL the time, you simply have to go back and read past threads to see that people are always asking to see what is shot by them and what they would recommend in the way of product or accessories.

On the topic of selling something to recoup expenses, if I sell an item I am going to make someone a very good deal on a piece of product and so the shooter will be able to purchase it for less than what they would have spent on it retail. So actually I've allowed a shooter to compete or continue competing, they have gotten a very nice product for LESS than what they would have paid retail for it. Now you have 2 shooters that are very content with what just happened, The winning shooter will continually promote sponsors and speak well of them simply because they KNOW, and UNDERSTAND, that sponsors don't have to do what they do.

What I seem to read in your statement is that effort and time should not be rewarded, so then maybe we should just put 2 tickets in a bucket one for Democrats and one for Republicans and just draw a ticket out since apparently the time and effort used to vote shouldn't be rewarded. it would be equitable, for sure, but would it be FAIR....................NO. should the Olympics have held races and then awarded medals based on something other than time and effort put into performance. You said what does the Top shooter really need??? another gun or something, do you think the same thing of Olympian Michael Phelps, does he really NEED another Gold medal, NEED is not the point HE WON!!, HE EARNED IT!! as well as the Silver and Bronze medalists.

I have no problem with a MD taking a prize and awarding it for raffle or mid pack shooters, but the prize table should be done fairly and as equitable as possible.

Lets just say that we agree to disagree, on this point.

Trapr

[badchad]

Maybe because you think that you "deserve" something because you worked harder, trained harder, and shot more?

Sounds like a pretty good reason for deserving something to me.

The 50% winner of a new piece of equipment will treasure that equipment and tell everyone how great the company was that sponsored it. if it is a gun, it will probably be kept as a keepsake forever continually giving the promotion back to the sponsor that we all hoped for and wanted.

I have to disagree here. Psychological studies have shown that people appreciate things they feel they have earned rather than things they think they have been given.

A top shooter that wins a $750 gun, baa, sell it for $400 as he wants the cash and will not do any promotion whatsoever.

I have to think they guy who wins the gun he doesn’t need will still appreciate the sponsor for offering it, and the guy who buys it for a $400 bargain will too. The 2nd owner should appreciate it because he earned it with hard work of a different sort.

"This may rub some people the wrong way with this philosophy, but really what does the "Top Shooter" really need?

I don’t think it’s a question of need, but rather what the competitors want. Someone should affix a poll to this thread, and it should differentiate between the wants of competitors and match directors.

This game is NOT about the best shooters as much as it is about bringing MORE shooters into the sport.

Other sports attract a lot more participants than we do, and they generally do so by recognizing and rewarding excellence, not luck.

Don't forget here, the Top Shooters have the same chance of winning that AR15 as does the first time shooter".

I’ve yet to win my first gun in competition, but I can assure you I would not feel particularly proud about it if I won it in a raffle.

[jdtravers]

There is no "inequity" with the random draw as everyone has the same chance in winning whatever prize is selected. By order of finish is fine, most matches are that way. However, as stated above a winner in one Division gets a prize worth $2300 and a winner in another Division gets $500. Why go to these matches just to pillage a prize table?

Maybe because you think that you "deserve" something because you worked harder, trained harder, and shot more? As a sponsor who gets 300+ requests a year, we look for more sales and more publicity so that we have the profit to give back to the industry. As stated earlier this mentality breeds greed and pushes sponsors away from helping. Sponsors want more sales and more customers and the Top Dogs have everything they need.

Am I a Democrat? Hell no, I believe in capitolism to the core. Do I want to spread the wealth? Hell YES! The 50% winner of a new piece of equipment will treasure that equipment and tell everyone how great the company was that sponsored it. if it is a gun, it will probably be kept as a keepsake forever continually giving the promotion back to the sponsor that we all hoped for and wanted. A top shooter that wins a $750 gun, baa, sell it for $400 as he wants the cash and will not do any promotion whatsoever. Who is perpetuating the sport? The newbies and 50% shooters, the top guys are staying around for the thrill and fun, those under 50%, well honestly speaking, many are destined to find another sport......

I am not saying that everyone should change to a random raffle prize distribution, I just gave you the defense of why we run our matches that way. I also do not think that all matches should run the smae scoring nor have all the same stage design. What makes America great and keeps our shooting sports alive is change, innovation, and freedom to think outside the box. If you do not like a way a match runs, a type of scoring system is used, or the way a prize table is distributed, just stay home and vote with your wallet.

Bill Sahlberg

Marketing Director

MGM Targets

www.mgmtargets.com

1-208-989-7511

"This may rub some people the wrong way with this philosophy, but really what does the "Top Shooter" really need? Another gun to sell? Another scope to sell? An unwanted Gift Certificate for something that he already has? This game is NOT about the best shooters as much as it is about bringing MORE shooters into the sport. Don't forget here, the Top Shooters have the same chance of winning that AR15 as does the first time shooter".

Sorry man, I don't like doing this on line, I would rather say it to your face, but (I don't care for your) philosophy!! This sounds like its coming from someone that has never won anything and is (unlikely to) ever win a competition. Notice I said competition. It's all about competition first, and then everything else falls in line. Nothing against people working their way up in the sport.

The last time I checked we generally tend to reward success in both sports and in the way we do business. We should reward the top level shooters with the best prizes and I would expect nothing less. The people who generally disagree with this are those who are jealous because they are incapable of winning.

Most of us shoot for the love of the sport, but hell yeah, it is damn nice to win a gun or a top level prize now and then. It's not that we "deserve" it, we WON it!!

The reward system is also what makes people work harder to get better. We all support the people that sponsor the events and to think that just because a top level shooter wins a prize and sells it does not make it any less promotable to the original sponsor.

Regards,

Jack T.

[kellyn]

Kurt, 2nd in Tac Optics at Rm3G (me!) did not win a CTR-02, it was a JP15 so your calculation is a little bit off. I think it is about an $1800 rifle and I'm grateful for it! Thanks JP. And I note that my Army guy beat me by more than your Army guy beat you!

Good discussion but we're getting a little heated so I'm shutting it down for now.

[kellyn]

After some editing and a reread, I've reopened this thread.

Trapr has a good point about killing off iron sighted practical rifle, which would be a sad thing and will have an impact on our ability to compete internationally - which is important to me but may not be to others. But the people have spoken and they sure prefer Tac Optic.

And Trapr is dead on about the fate of prize guns sold. You get not one but 2 happy supporters. I shoot for DSA and JP yet you can see many a posting on this forum by myself supporting sponsors such as DPMS and Sabre Defense. Why? Because of their incredible generous support (and they make pretty good stuff) so I don't buy into the notion that the top shooters don't provide any promotion.

[TRUBL]

I've been on all sides of this prize table thing.....literally. Everything from setting one up, picking stuff off, contributing to it, seeing the tope shooters get the most expensive prize, the worst prize, selling what we got, keeping what we got, etc.

The short answer is.....not everyone is going to be happy.....get over it. Shoot the sport for the right reasons (YMMV).

I have worked for and presently work for companies that contribute greatly to 3 gun. Sometimes, at the top, or even in other circumstances, there is a conflict of intrest in somebody winning a prize that they can't use due to sponsorship, or already have it, or whatever. Soooo.....they sell it. I've talked with the people I work for about this and for the most part, it is a non issue.

I've seen stuff that we put on the table end up on ebay or gunbroker.....or given away at the match to someone else. Are our feelings hurt? NO. We've contributed to a match....our sponsorship is done at that point, we've gotten the recognition, we've made a decision on where to put our advertising dollars based on the match. We have never said "hmmmmm, if a top shooter wins this, he's just gonna sell it to some one else at a reduced price".....UHMMM, we don't care!! Keep in mind, that is pretty much the feeling at ALL the places I've worked that sponsors 3 gun matches. Kelly is right...we are in the 'golden age' of prize tables for 3 gun, better like it while it is happening.....I suspect it will hit a peak (if it hasn't already) and start to dwindle. I'm hoping not everyone is in this sport for the prize table.....you may be sadly dissapointed in 3 or 4 years. (MHO).

On setting up the prize tables.....a thankless job. BUT, there needs to be equity.....how?? Damn glad I am not doing it any more. I'll tell you, there is an equation you can follow (and it looks great on paper).....but it doesn't really work. And then there is going with the flow and and using your 'gut' feeling.....again, this may not really work either.

Maybe its just me.....but the guys at the top?, they should get the top prize....and down the line it should go. I'm not a big fan of grab bags.....but I'll never say I don't like it.....how about...it's ok. I know its a tough job to lay out a prize table, especially when you are dealing with $90k or more worth of stuff and 3 or 4 different divisions. Oh yeah.....but if it is a random draw or something like that.....the top shooters in the sport are probably still there.....its a recognition thing mostly anyways (ask them).

And yes.....the top shooters DO provide promotion into this sport. If you think that the guys that finish 1,2 and 3 in a division are the ONLY top shooters, you have it so wrong. Go down to the top 15% or even 20% in each division......THEY are the top shooters in this sport. Yes, we have 2 guys that float to the top of the top in this sport and will continue to float to the top in this sport for the next 15 or 20 years (sorry Kurt, its not you, but you truely are one of the top .001% and IMHO one of the 'good guys' too), and ya know what?....I want to see these 2 guys dominate (along with Kurt), win all they can, blow away the competiton.....and damn....what if someone comes along thats better???? In 20years....Kurt will be dominating SS still!!!

Where I work now, we've latched on to some of the best in this sport....not only in their shooting skills, but their people skills, the way they communicate with others, their goodwill, etc. Hell, they don't even have to mention that we sponsor them!!! But it seems, people know.....so yes, right on Kelly.

There's sooooo much more I could say, but I'll just get in trouble with a whole BUNCH of people that I just really don't care for (thats a famous quote btw).

I'll get off my soap box now

EDITED:

OK, I'm not done....I've also been on the picking stuff off side too. My theroy on prize tables in this respect is, if I don't have it already, I don't need it or possibly don't want it. So...alot of times I'll go down the line to pick up that CTR stock I've thinking of getting, or that shooting matt, or damn, I'm the market for a back pack that I can put a rifle in, etc. I figure, it all equals out, sometime I get some really neat stuff, other times, nothing to write home about....but NEVER was I disappointed. Heck.....if it wasn't for prize tables, I'd never be using PMAGS.....so Magpul did a great thing in promoting 3 gun, they have someone that buys their mags and tells others about them.

(soap box mode off again)

Edited again (darnit):

I mentioned about guys selling stuff they win of the prize table.....so what? The person that ends up with the prize is gonna use it as they bought it because they like it. and they will tell their friends about it. I'm not 100% sure, but I think is advertising too. Having hidden grab bags? Ok, I'm even for that. Also ok, lay everything out in piles as opposed to grab bags? ok....I'm for that. Or maybe use clear plastic bags? Ok....I'm for that too. It makes it easier for me to go down the line and maybe get something I want to try or use. On that note....I did win an Upper cert at one match that I can't use (and damn, its nice too!!). And I find out I passed by a 3 gun cart to get that CTR stock at the last match....oh well, I didn't need either one of them but they do fall into the 'would be nice to have' catagory. MY HATS OFF TO ALL THE SPONSORS OF THESE MATCHES!!! Your place is where I spend my 3 gun dollar.

(soap box mode off again)

Edited September 18, 2008 by TRUBL

[benelli2]

Ok, i'll throw my ..02 cents in here too, I have had only a few sponsors over the 20+ years of shooting these sports, but have given thousands of recommendations on guns and gear and I recommend the best of the best, and just so happens those guys are also some of the most dedicated, loyal and generous sponsors; Blackhawk, JP, Sabre, DPMS, STI etc, So I know they get the advertising regardless of who gets the donation they made to the table.

I,ve worked for them, run matches and shot 'em so I know that everyone is never happy about a prize table but lets get serious, no other sport I have ever heard of thinks that rewarding participation brings in new competitors, everyone else rewards the winners. Unless we are leading the country in going politically correct trying to make everyone feel good about themselves and winning doesn't matter, its that you tried not how you did, give me a break!, its called a competition for a reason, thats what draws shooters to this sport, is the love of shooting, the action, the drive, competing, and seeing how you do against the big dogs. Bird watchingis for participants, (no insult to a very disiplined institution) 3 gun is for Competitors, Reward performance and that encourages better performance and sells more gear and bullets, you don't get good overnight, overall finish is what should be important within a division. Rewarding paticipation is just too Liberal for me, and I will always choose to shoot the matches that tend to base their prize tables on the same mentality.

I've been shooting this long enough to remember when there was only one division in USPSA! We shot stock guns and single stacks right out there against race guns, guess what, your classification just wasn't as high, it was still fun, but nothing was ever randomn drawing for prizes,

Winners should be the winners no matter what the sport, most will still be great guys and will promote the best products, and the newer competitors will follow

jc

[uscbigdawg]

Overall finish is the only fair way. Why would the guy who finished 100 get a gun and the guy who finished first get sight black? Doing so discounts all of that persons work and dedication for the luck of the draw.

I'm with Tim in that I shoot to be a better shooter and have fun...like most of us. However, the reality is that there are certain matches that shooters attend because of the reputation of the prize table. The last big 3-Gun match I shot was the SMM3G in 2004. I worked my butt off getting ready, did a ton of practice, testing, etc. and took a top 25 and got a rifle off the prize table for it. Would I have been pissed if I didn't win a gun? Nope. Would I have been pissed if someone who was 150th did and I didn't? Yep. Hypocritical? Yeah, but it discounts the work that I put in.

The lottery prize system is frankly socialist as it says everyone's the same, for just showing up. No value other than a plaque for how you did. For small matches, this is probably the better way as it spurs the lower ranked shooters to continue. At bigger matches, definitely overall finish.

Mike Dalton said it once about the USPSA classification system. It's great at the club level to develop talent. However at big matches, there should be no classes and simply overall finish. I whole heartedly agree.

Rich

[JKSNIPER]

I shot in a sniper match (New England Sniper Summit) years ago, and stll shoot in it (when my backs not fudged up).

Ed Gross ran it and had the prize table set up as a raffle thing.

Big prizes ?

Everyones ticket went back into the hat so everyone had equal chance of winning the "big " prizes.

A US Army SF guy won a Nesika Bay action this way. He sold it at a BIG discount to a shooter there who then used it to build his rilfe and went on to compete and DOMINATE the L.E. sniper competitions for years and is still out there shooting in competitions.

THe raffle benefited everyone in that the lowliest competitor went there and may shot dismally but had an equal chance to win a big prize as the best shooter there did.

Guys show up there year after year to shoot and compete but its a lot of fun too.

There have been those guys that are "professional competitors" that have showed up and they had fun, shot well, and walked off with the top trophy and , due to the raffle system for the big prizes, everyone went home with something from the match.

I thought it was a good way to run things.

JK

[badchad]

THe raffle benefited everyone in that the lowliest competitor went there and may shot dismally but had an equal chance to win a big prize as the best shooter there did.

It’s statements like this that make General George S. Patton roll over in his grave.

Edited to add: Systems like this don't really benefit everyone, they rip off the guys that should have won. The lowliest competitor that shoots dismally does not deserve the big prize, he deserves to go home, pay his dues and practice.

Edited September 18, 2008 by badchad

[45shooter]

After shooting matches for the past few years, and really sucking when I started I still have to agree with the guys who support order of finish prize distribution. Now that I have put the time and money into practicing and have a chance at a better prize, the random drawing thing isn't very attractive. Besides even when I first started shooting I had the mentality that I wanted to earn my prize not win it. What made me practice and put the time in was to improve my finishes and have a chance at a better prize. The random drawing idea may be nice at a local match when everyone wants to make themselves feel good about themselves, but I don't think it is thae way the sport should go. If you want to win something by random drawing play the lottery.

I do feel that all divisions should be represented failry, but if there are 150 guys in tac ops and 6 in irons, the prizes have to be proportioned towards the bigger division. The top guys should get a good prize eqaul to the other divisions, but I don't fell the guy who shot poorly and got 6th in irons should get the same value priize as the guy who shot good and got 6th in tac ops beathing 144 others.

[Bill Sahlberg]

There is no "inequity" with the random draw as everyone has the same chance in winning whatever prize is selected. By order of finish is fine, most matches are that way. However, as stated above a winner in one Division gets a prize worth $2300 and a winner in another Division gets $500. Why go to these matches just to pillage a prize table?

Maybe because you think that you "deserve" something because you worked harder, trained harder, and shot more? As a sponsor who gets 300+ requests a year, we look for more sales and more publicity so that we have the profit to give back to the industry. As stated earlier this mentality breeds greed and pushes sponsors away from helping. Sponsors want more sales and more customers and the Top Dogs have everything they need.

Am I a Democrat? Hell no, I believe in capitolism to the core. Do I want to spread the wealth? Hell YES! The 50% winner of a new piece of equipment will treasure that equipment and tell everyone how great the company was that sponsored it. if it is a gun, it will probably be kept as a keepsake forever continually giving the promotion back to the sponsor that we all hoped for and wanted. A top shooter that wins a $750 gun, baa, sell it for $400 as he wants the cash and will not do any promotion whatsoever. Who is perpetuating the sport? The newbies and 50% shooters, the top guys are staying around for the thrill and fun, those under 50%, well honestly speaking, many are destined to find another sport......

I am not saying that everyone should change to a random raffle prize distribution, I just gave you the defense of why we run our matches that way. I also do not think that all matches should run the smae scoring nor have all the same stage design. What makes America great and keeps our shooting sports alive is change, innovation, and freedom to think outside the box. If you do not like a way a match runs, a type of scoring system is used, or the way a prize table is distributed, just stay home and vote with your wallet.

Bill Sahlberg

Marketing Director

MGM Targets

www.mgmtargets.com

1-208-989-7511

"This may rub some people the wrong way with this philosophy, but really what does the "Top Shooter" really need? Another gun to sell? Another scope to sell? An unwanted Gift Certificate for something that he already has? This game is NOT about the best shooters as much as it is about bringing MORE shooters into the sport. Don't forget here, the Top Shooters have the same chance of winning that AR15 as does the first time shooter".

Sorry man, I don't like doing this on line, I would rather say it to your face, but (I don't care for your) philosophy!! This sounds like its coming from someone that has never won anything and is (unlikely to) ever win a competition. Notice I said competition. It's all about competition first, and then everything else falls in line. Nothing against people working their way up in the sport.

The last time I checked we generally tend to reward success in both sports and in the way we do business. We should reward the top level shooters with the best prizes and I would expect nothing less. The people who generally disagree with this are those who are jealous because they are incapable of winning.

Most of us shoot for the love of the sport, but hell yeah, it is damn nice to win a gun or a top level prize now and then. It's not that we "deserve" it, we WON it!!

The reward system is also what makes people work harder to get better. We all support the people that sponsor the events and to think that just because a top level shooter wins a prize and sells it does not make it any less promotable to the original sponsor.

Regards,

Jack T.

Jack, et all;

Please read my post again. The context of my statements are mine personally for the matches that my club runs in the NW. My disclaimer is that variety is the spice of life and what drives match organizers to better matches. Many disagree with my philosophy, that doesn't bother me at all. It is highly doubtful that many of you will be attending any of our local 50 person matches in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho anyway.

As the Marketing Director of MGM Targets, I look for who will promote MGM and advertise MGM the best so that current and future sales are increased. Where do you think all this sponsorship money comes from anyway? It comes from profit! Our profits that can either be put into magazine ads or go to matches in way of sponsorships of prizes. MGM supports hundreds of matches each year with many of those matches never even asked to sink a dime into these target costs, all we ask for is good promotion.

Bill Sahlberg

[SinistralRifleman]

I would prefer to see cash prizes for the top 3 or top whatever number of shooters appropriate for the division. If people are turning around and selling stuff (often for much less than it is worth), I think they'd just prefer to have the cash. There is no reason not to have a combination system that rewards both performance and encourages new people to show up...raffle at a banquet and prize table in order of finish. Match directors could also specifically request prizes that will be randomly awarded to "new shooter" "top lady" "top junior" etc that can draw in more people for those demographics.

edit: it is important that matches advertise what method of prize distribution is going to be used ahead of time. Matches are a products, competitors are customers, if you don't like the product based on certain things at the match, spend your money elsewhere.

Edited September 18, 2008 by SinistralRifleman

[jdtravers]

Apology accepted Bill!

We all know MGM has the finest products out there and they are one of the many great sponsors of the sport. Travis already got with me and we're square.

I don't think you realize your dealing with a lot of type "A", highly competetive sponsored shooters and we have a different philosophy when it comes to shooting.

It might not be feasible, but we need a system in place that rewards "success" to the top finishers in each divisions and still shows the sponsors appreciation to all the shooters. Get rid of High Senior, Super Senior, Ugly fat Guy, etc. Maybe it's just me, but how can you get excited if you win Super Senior and there are only two of you. (USPSA of course) I'm 55 years old and don't want any concesssions for my age. I wouldn't compete if it wasn't on a level playing field. You will never make everyone happy, so the MDs need to set a standard you can live and die by.

We shouldn't have to bait new shooters to the match by advertising big prize tables and such. The match should be designed well enough that it is a reward and gratifiying in and of itself.

Have more side matchs, shotgun, raffles and such for award of prizes. Have an agility stage with a special prize to the fastest time on the stage that even a first time "in shape" shooter would be capable of winning.

I don't think I should receive a prize, gift or whatever you want to call it, just because I participate in a match. If I don't shoot my ability and finish poorly, that's on me. I'm going home and work on my shortcommings. (Big list lately)

The reality of it. When there are big money guns and prizes on the table of high value, then they should go to the people who performed the best. This is an incentive to new shooters; you want the good stuff, then work for it.

To tell the truth, it wouldn't bother me if there wasn't a prize table. Most of us shoot for the love of the sport first and foremost.

But if the sponsors are going to put great prizes on the table. Then dude, if I win, I want my piece of the pie!!! Basic human nature.

I'm out of here. I race motorcross/enduro, but haven't been able to practice because the ground has been holding too much water from the hurricane. Finally dry enough to hit the tracks/trails. See ya next hurricane.

Jack

[kurtm]

Big matches that have prize tables, have a cap on how many shooters they allow in. Almost all of them fill to capacity with a waiting list...well except for the Nationals, so how are we going to "get more shooters/new shooters" if the match is capped and has a waiting list? We could give all the prizes to the lowest finishers and the match would still fill and have a waiting list, so how does that "grow" our sport? Random draw doesn't "grow our sport", order of finish doesn't "grow our sport". The only way to grow this sport is to have more venues so more people can participate, or allow more shooters into the match. I have seen the figure of 300 + requests for sponsorship from the Directer of Marketing of a large company, if that were the case we would have at least 100 3-gun matches to chose from and I haven't seen that many yet, but we can always hope. The 3-gun community is a relativly small one and I wouldn't bank all my companies sales on it, but all sponsorship is GREATLY appreciated by ALL of the shooters, from the top on down, whether they "need" anything or not.

Saying that "top shooters" don't bring new people into 3-gun is just plain ridiculous. Many people get into our sport to see how they compare to the "top Shooters". Also when a "top shooter" sells a prize off he will almost all the time say I won this at XX match, man you really ought to try it out...it is great! "Top shooters" also lend prestige to matches. Many folks say, if Jerry and Mike and Taran and Bruce and Tony and Daniel and Robbie go there it must be a great match, and that builds interest in the match. All of this is intertwined and there is no great answer, I just hate to see certain divisions die off because of inequity. KurtM

[Chuck Anderson]

I have seen the figure of 300 + requests for sponsorship from the Directer of Marketing of a large company, if that were the case we would have at least 100 3-gun matches to chose from and I haven't seen that many yet, but we can always hope.

I completely buy that figure. It's not just USPSA looking for money. When you look at every National, Area, Sectional, and, Local match that asks for Match Sponsorship, I'm sure it's higher than 300. Add in the Law Enforcement, Tactical, Charity, IDPA, ICORE, STC, Pro-Am and other disciplines there are a lot of hands trying to reach in the same pocket. I know there are way than 100 3-Gun matches in the country. We run at least 26 a year within an hour of my house. Not all of these are big enough to ask for sponsorship, but several do. I've talked to some sponsors (Springfield comes to mind) that get hit with around 1000 requests a year for sponsorship.

One of the reasons (I think) that 3-Gun has such great prize tables is because there isn't a huge glut of big matches out there. Off the top of my head I think there are less than 10 (5ish) 3-Gun matches that have $100,000.00+ tables. There are several that fall into the 25-75K range but nowhere near as many as there are pistol matches.

Which would people rather have, 5 3-gun matches with $200,000.00 on the table at each or 20 3-gun matches with $50,000.00 each?

[Cactustactical]

I have seen the figure of 300 + requests for sponsorship from the Directer of Marketing of a large company, if that were the case we would have at least 100 3-gun matches to chose from and I haven't seen that many yet, but we can always hope.

I completely buy that figure. It's not just USPSA looking for money. When you look at every National, Area, Sectional, and, Local match that asks for Match Sponsorship, I'm sure it's higher than 300. Add in the Law Enforcement, Tactical, Charity, IDPA, ICORE, STC, Pro-Am and other disciplines there are a lot of hands trying to reach in the same pocket. I know there are way than 100 3-Gun matches in the country. We run at least 26 a year within an hour of my house. Not all of these are big enough to ask for sponsorship, but several do. I've talked to some sponsors (Springfield comes to mind) that get hit with around 1000 requests a year for sponsorship.

Agreed, 300 requests is incredibly easy to reach in a normal business year. As Chuck said, it isn't just matches which are looking for freebies. We, in particular, get approached by police departments perhaps twice a week to support their Swat team, Family Day and other functions, etc. Really hard to determine who are the best candidates for a finite pool of money to spend. With us earlier in the year is better, and it always helps that the organization actually are prior or current customers when making a decision.

On the original topic, I am not a big fan of random draw prize tables. I personally believe a person should be rewarded for their accomplishments.

[P.E. Kelley]

Wow, this subject again!!!

Prize tables ($) draw the top talent to the matches.

As a competitor I want to shoot with and against the best.

Trophy matches are fine with a commensurate entry fee.

Big entry fee = big prize table = top level competitors. This is where you will find me.

Matches that carry significant recognition as the prize (Area, Regional, Specialty, Nationals etc.) Draw in the top dawgs and me along with them.

Random draw……is little more than Special Olympics for non special people. I understand the thinking behind random draw and if a sponsor requests it, so be it.

If a match director chooses random draw I generally do not attend these matches. Unless the match is good and the fee is appropriate.

I have been to “prize tables in search of a match” (and won big) but have not returned because the match had not matured yet.

Patrick

Edited September 19, 2008 by P.E. Kelley

[TRUBL]

You call a Winchester superior equipment????

Thats just proof that you can put a turd in the hands of a great shooter and he is gonna make it look like a silk purse......but it still smells.

Ok....that one was just to get you going.....the rest I agree with, so we pull it back to the topic at hand.....well, except for the 'King' stuff too.

[BPiatt]

I hate to throw a wrench into this discussion, BUT.... (yes I'm going to throw out my "old school" SOF Match arguement again)

The Soldier of Fortune Matches of old had 300 plus shooters shooting both scopes and irons, had the largest prizes of any match in the country, had one prize table and what I miss the most, an overall winner. They did this by having a set value to each stage, an iron and an optics winner for each rifle stage, and everyone else were percentaged off of their scores. Just like TO and TI, the shotguns and pistols were the same so it comes down to how the rifles were scored. If you wanted to shoot .308, then you did and you were rewarded with Major scoring and less wind drift. If you think this wasn't fair, Jim Clark Jr. and I are the only people to win the match 5 times and I did it each time with an Iron Sighted AR shooting 55 gr. ball ammo. I'm not sure what gear Jimmy won with.

When I meet people in the industry (potential sponsors) and tell them about 3-gun competition, a common question is "who won the match". Then I give a sigh and try to explain, "well there's really 4 winners, Optics, Iron, Open, HM...." and they all give me that confused look when I finish. I believe this initial confusion sets a bad first impression and turns off industry execs to the 3-gun scene.

For those of you who know me, you know I'll shoot whatever game is around..... but I guess I just miss the old days. Things were easier then. If you wanted to shoot Open, you shot USPSA, if you wanted to shoot "Tactical" you shot SOF.

Now, if I can just get to the range for some practice for the Multi-Gun Nationals. Did you see the courses of fire? Finally some "old school IPSC" stages. A 'shooting' match rather than a 'loading' match..... sorry Kurt.

[el pres]

I did'nt even see this thread till right now. I posted this in the RM3G thread but I'll

move it here.

I'll play, from a TacScope perspective. I'm going to have to be frank the top group of

Iron shooters are all top notch 3gunners that will always come out on top even in the overall

scores and should be rewarded accordanly !!! The problem with combing prize tables is that

"some" Iron shooters shoot that class not because they are masters of that craft but because

they are useing it as a match tactic to get a much better place on the table. This is where TacScope

shooters shooting in the largest, most competitive ("by numbers only"), class get hosed.

The problem with the multiple tables is that the good stuff runs out far too quickly on the short tables,

thats where the deserving Iron,HM, and even Open shooters get hosed. My humble suggestion, if poss.

would be to distribute the good stuff (toys) on individual tables but not by percentage of shooters in

that class but by "overall" scores. May be too much work but it would be fair. For example, if there are

five Iron shooters in the top ten "overall" scores, beating Open and TacScope shooters, then maybe there

should be three to five rifles on the Iron table and not one ??? I'm only useing Irons as an example !!

My 2 cents...

Peter

[kurtm]

No problem Bruce, the last 3-gun Nationals wasn't much of a "loading" match either. Guess I will just have to learn how to shoot over the next couple of weeks. Do you think you would have some time to teach me in the next week or so?

BTW I REALLY MISSS S.O.F.!!!! Figures that they would stop about the time I was getting better.

[el pres]

Reason I posted is that I'm a TacScope shooter and I'm placing higher and higher each

match, so I cant complain about the TacScope table AT ALL !! Altough I have seen

friends in different classes who come in very high in the overall standings (higher then me)

not get rewarded for their efforts ???

Another way we can fix all this whineing is if we could all just get along and shoot TacSCope !!

[retzkek]

I shoot HMI. It's fun and I like the challenge, which is why I started shooting in the first place. Despite being in what could be considered the most "disadvantaged" class, I'd be just fine with there being a single prize table. It seems like it would be a lot simpler and more fair overall. If my goal was to win a top prize (assuming I had the requisite skills), I'd gear up accordingly.

It seems to me that the way to make things more "fair" between the classes is not to restructure the prize table, but to restructure the match. Eliminate the classes (well, maybe leave two - open and limited/tactical/whatever-you-want-to-call-the-non-open-class) and set up the scoring and stage designs such that one set of equipment does not provide a clear advantage. Like in real life, different equipment is advantageous in different scenarios. This is a topic for a wholly separate thread, but surely some creative minds out there can come up with some "equalizing" stage designs? Or am I just being naive?

Anyways, prizes are great, but let's not forget why we're here!