Palm Pilot scoring

[BritinUSA]

I can't wait to see this in action at the Nationals. I used to have the individual version of this product and used it a lot to keep track of my scores. Unfortunately my Palm died a couple of years ago, and I've never gotten around to getting a new one. But the software was great.

Hopefully I'll be able to access my scores on my iPod (it has wi-fi) at the match. I sincerely hope that this works out, experience at the Area matches where they have used it seems to be generally positive and who knows, maybe if we get the WS we can bring IPSC into the 21st century too.

[SA Friday]

If the system gets upgraded to remove the zeroes, that will be a plus.

With current pricing, that should only cost $50 per copy.

Careful now. I hear scoring matches for a while changes minds....

[Resjudicata]

FYI, I wasn't trying to bag on the software or the people trying to use it at the matches. I'm sure both are well intentioned. I just hope to see that any RO's using the Palm scoring at matches are properly trained so that the shooters who paid to shoot and took time off to shoot and who may have money hanging from their performance don't get shafted due to either the software or the improper use of that software.

It sounds like the folks with USPSA are working hard to keep improving the training given to the RO's and that the software designer is continuing to improve the software. That's good to hear. I hope this keeps up so that the shooters get the best chance possible to receive the score they earned.

Chris

(BTW, not afraid of change or these newfangled electronic gadgets).

Greetings all from the land down under.

Due to a life threatening issue last year, I have kept a low profile and away from the nit picking that always surrounds 'new' things.

The point is this - Rob has made the suggestion that the "0" be replaced by "_" and I agree TOTALLY.

It is being changed now.

That's what happens when we cooperate constructively - we all benefit.

I notice a problem described at the head of this thread. There would have been no problem had the RO practised beforehand. That is not always possible but in short time if everybody cooperated, familiarity would reign and problems disappear.

The solution in that case is simple for a nervous and stressed RO - write down the scores and time on paper, then tap in 1000 seconds and the score on the wrong shooter will be zero'd. Then find the right shooter and tap in the scores from paper. Problem fixed in about 30 seconds.

I have taken great trouble to create a comprehensive PDF and a Powerpoint tutorial that anybody can peruse and learn, even without a palm.

I should add that an RO has the following options to find shooters:

a) Automated shooting order - where a rotating shooting order is automatic and progressive. (no more arguments)

Find shooters by their number. Just ask for his number - tap that in and presto 'he' appears.

c) Find shooters by name (ditto)

d) Find shooters manually.

The RO is clearly advised and asked to confirm PRIOR to starting the shooter, of the shooter's name and his number.

I also agree that familiarisation is necessary before using Palms, but in life what does not require familiarisation in order to be effective?

Simply put - I can teach effective basic use in 20 minutes or less to local Papua New Guineans who have nil exposure to computers and haven't even seen a palm before.

I think you blokes have 'just a slight' advantage over those people. The key to it all is the willingness to adopt the new - but that's life anyway!

Simple efforts are being taken to familiarise RO's well before the match, and a refresher at the match. I understand that a good number of ROs are already proficient.

I know this will revolutionise our dynamic sport and increase our membership by making our scoring dynamic and 'spectator friendly', and ultimately be a thorn in the side of our anti gun antagonists.

I am trying to make my way over to your Nats to help out at the match, and have a powerful offer to put to USPSA and IPSC to make this available to everybody cheaply and bring an end to licensing etc.

BE HAPPY

Peter Cunningham

ass@acenet.com.au ("ass"=Automated Scoring Systems)

[Peter Cunningham]

Well - That modification was easy - a pleasant change from others that can take weeks of work.

It looks MUCH better.

Thanks for the suggestion - this is how we make things better.

For those who snipe from the sides regarding costs. In addition to 5 man years dedicated full time work to create this, every change costs ME - and usually that's a lot of money.

A fair minded person would realise that before cheaply sniping at people who actually take the risk and do the work.

Chris Davies was the last to use Palm at his Area 3 big match - a palm apparently died due to heat and was immediately replaced. That is a very rare, and in Papua New Guinea we use them in the tropical heat without problems, so it must have been sick anyway.

An extract from Chris: "The feedback I got from the shooters and RO's about the palms was all favorable. Took a few of the RO's a little longer to catch on but it went very smoothly. The first day there were some questions when having to do some advanced things with the palms (shoot throughs and walkons) but by the second day they were able to handle anything thrown at them."

As people become progressively familiar, the learning curves won't exist and we can get stuck into things confidently. It's natural progression with anything new - it takes the desire to try new things to advance.

If anybody here wants a PDF Tutorial emailed to them, then ask and I will send, because it's images are all linked and teach visually and step by step.

Peter Cunningham

ass@acenet.com.au

[EZ Bagger]

For those who snipe from the sides regarding costs. In addition to 5 man years dedicated full time work to create this, every change costs ME - and usually that's a lot of money.

A fair minded person would realise that before cheaply sniping at people who actually take the risk and do the work.

I you wish to discuss pricing, perhaps we can have you open up a new thread with that as the topic. I'm sure you'd get plenty of feedback from those of us with economics and financial backgrounds.

[tpcdvc]

For those who snipe from the sides regarding costs. In addition to 5 man years dedicated full time work to create this, every change costs ME - and usually that's a lot of money.

A fair minded person would realise that before cheaply sniping at people who actually take the risk and do the work.

I you wish to discuss pricing, perhaps we can have you open up a new thread with that as the topic. I'm sure you'd get plenty of feedback from those of us with economics and financial backgrounds.

Can't wait to see this!

[Jim Norman]

This is a great idea that sadly works (so far as I know) only on outdated, obsolete equipment. I have and use a Palm, but I can't see it in daylight. I will reserve comment on the costs until after the USPSA Nats where Peter has indicated he has an idea to make this available at a cost we can live with.

If we could only get it on a system that works in daylight and can be bought other than second hand/rebuilt.

Jim (and if I am wrong, then I am sorry, but these are the facts as I understand them)

[Rob Boudrie]

This is a great idea that sadly works (so far as I know) only on outdated, obsolete equipment.

I expect it will also work on the newer Palms such as this one:

http://www.palm.com/us/products/handheldsz22/index.html

It's a question of economics. The old IIIxes are available for $25 or less each; new ones are $99 + tax, plus you have to deal with keeping the batteries charged. An area match needs about 15; a nationals about 25 (including the master and a few spares).

A program that runs on the windows Pocket PC would require even pricier hardware.

[Rob Boudrie]

The folks down under have delivered a new version that uses the Jones/McManus protocol for display of stage summaries. This will be tested at a local match and is expected to be the version in use a the nationals:

[Jim Norman]

This is a great idea that sadly works (so far as I know) only on outdated, obsolete equipment.

I expect it will also work on the newer Palms such as this one:

http://www.palm.com/us/products/handheldsz22/index.html

It's a question of economics. The old IIIxes are available for $25 or less each; new ones are $99 + tax, plus you have to deal with keeping the batteries charged. An area match needs about 15; a nationals about 25 (including the master and a few spares).

A program that runs on the windows Pocket PC would require even pricier hardware.

Big question is visibility. I have M130, cannot see it in daylight, unless held just so and then not always.

Big Question #2 is sadly Price. Yes it will make USPSA maybe more spectator friendly and maybe a faster learn for new shooters, but the cost to many clubs is just too high. Figure with 7 stages we'd need no less than 10 units and ten licenses unless the price structure has changed we are talking near $2000.

Big Question #3 at the local levels with self ROing squads, we need no less than 2 people per squad capable of understanding and running this system, likely more since not everyone shoots every match.

Understand, I would like to see this work as I think it will be a plus, I just don't see it as it currently stands. Old equipment,expensive program. new equipment with charge time problems and visibility probs. Not all ranges have power onsite to charge the newer units.

Solve some of this along with not showing the shooter what hits he got on which target and MAYBE it will fulfill its promise.

Jim

Edited August 5, 2008 by Jim Norman

[JThompson]

I'm sure someone thought about this, but make sure you guys have some freezer bags available... either that or waterproof Palm cases.

Edited August 5, 2008 by JThompson

[Singlestack]

I'm sure someone thought about this, but make sure you guys have some freezer bags available... either that or waterproof Palm cases.

Now theres an idea.

Tacticle Palm Cases

[Skizeks]

Say what you want, but if you haven't used them before you need to keep your pie hole shut!!

As you can tell I'm not the smatest person on this thread or I would keep my pie hole shut. I saw and used them for the first time at Aera 3 over the weekend. I like them!! We had some problems with getting around in them. The problems go away when you ask how and then know how to do it.

Nobody knows everything, you even had to learn how to whipe you bu!!.

DUANE EGGERS

[JThompson]

Really?I thought the forum was for open discourse... seems like one rather good idea has been taken and will make an improvement on the display.

[Nik Habicht]

O.K. everyone --- time to remember the forum guidelines. This thread is close to veering out of the politeness zone Brian's forum is known for.....

Attitude

Please be polite. Or if not polite, at least respectful.

No bickering. Regardless of the subject matter.

Antagonistic, offensive, or quarrelsome tones are not acceptable.

Thank you!

[joecichlid]

Peter, while I was working in IT I learned something I still hold on to. Never ask the bosses what they want, ask the end users. LOL Thank you very much for all your hard work on this program.

Joe W.

[Rob Boudrie]

Big question is visibility. I have M130, cannot see it in daylight, unless held just so and then not always.

I use reading glasses, but I have never been unable to read the information I need from the screen of the IIIxe which from all I read is less visible than the M130. I've never been unable to verify a competitor number, time entered, etc. or had to accept anything on faith.

Big Question #2 is sadly Price. Yes it will make USPSA maybe more spectator friendly and maybe a faster learn for new shooters, but the cost to many clubs is just too high. Figure with 7 stages we'd need no less than 10 units and ten licenses unless the price structure has changed we are talking near $2000.

That's definitely an issue, and I hope Peter starts a forum thread on the topic. USPSA has a license for the nationals as payment for adding the support for Palm scoring import to EzWinScore.

Big Question #3 at the local levels with self ROing squads, we need no less than 2 people per squad capable of understanding and running this system, likely more since not everyone shoots every match.

This has already happened at Harvard Sportsmens in MA.

Understand, I would like to see this work as I think it will be a plus, I just don't see it as it currently stands. Old equipment,expensive program. new equipment with charge time problems and visibility probs. Not all ranges have power onsite to charge the newer units.

You don't need on-site power to charge the units, and it won't help that much. If the unit is not charged at the start of the match you won't have time to recharge it between shooters. The bigger issue for me with rechargeable units is the fact that batteries get tired over the years and eventually don't hold a charge. This isn't a problem with a relatively new unit, but probably will be if you buy old one on ebay for short $$. There is a reason that Dell will not warrantee a laptop battery for more than one year, no matter what service plan you purchase.

[tpcdvc]

This is how we got the palms up and running:

We started with a core group of folks at our club and went over the basics before the first match. Then we squaded that group together and used the palms but did the paper thing as well. By the end of that match we had our squad (8-10) folks comfortable with the palms. It was very easy (Usually after scoring 2 shooters they were rockin' right along). The following month we spread the core group out among the 4 squads and everyone helped new people use them. And abra cadabra we were off and running and have not looked back. NOT A PROBLEM! We love the palms!!

The cost is a whole other issue. I would really be interested to hear what peter is thinking these days. I'm not a fan of the original idea which was this.....First giving the software to the USPSA and then they would offer it as a free download to any club that wants it. Then the USPSA would charge all the shooters across the nation who used the software a fee to upload the scores (classifiers) and then pay peter a kind of a royalty. I'm in a business of royalties and I can see no justification for members to pay for the software when by and large it doesn't make things better for the shooter (The product will remain the same). It won't make your stages better. It won't make the match run any smoother for the shooter. And the match fee will reflect the extra cost of the palm upload (level I-III). Now, that being said the scores are done within minutes of the last shot fired, so waiting around for the scores can be greatly reduced. Although most of the waiting around in many cases has nothing to do with the scores being done. Bottom line is that shooters don't really care if some guy or gal is in a trailer pecking away at a keyboard for hours or not. They just want a great match and the software really doesn't help improve the match.

I'll be eating my popcorn and watching intently for peters wisdom.

[SA Friday]

Big Question #2 is sadly Price. Yes it will make USPSA maybe more spectator friendly and maybe a faster learn for new shooters, but the cost to many clubs is just too high. Figure with 7 stages we'd need no less than 10 units and ten licenses unless the price structure has changed we are talking near $2000.

That's definitely an issue, and I hope Peter starts a forum thread on the topic. USPSA has a license for the nationals as payment for adding the support for Palm scoring import to EzWinScore.

As it's Peter's property, he may not feel comfortable with a thread on how he markets his product. I can respect that, but what Peter doesn't know is EZBagger is a Corp CPA, and would probably run some number for him just for the asking. I think Peter would be fairly suprised as to what the numbers would say. It very well might be worth a PM to EZ.

[Peter Cunningham]

LOOK you blokes - it's really simple.

I've said it a thousand times, I'm not a marketing person - I'm a civil engineer.

Snipe as much as you like but the simple fact remains - I stuck my nose out and threw my money and years of solid effort at this - and it works reliably.

Why does it work reliably?

I did not adopt the computer industry standard of releasing junk, then progressively patching it up with 'pay for me' upgrades. I built a bridge with solid foundations that will stand, and to achieve that took a lot of up front time, money and utter dedication to achieve.

How many nit pickers have had the guts or stupidity to do the same - NONE.

I did NOT do this for profit - I did it to help US.

Why is being honest and forthright really that difficult for some people to accept?

Simply put - I want to further our sport along with legitimate civilian firearm ownership and use, because if we don't, our anti gun foes (which includes your and my governments and the UN) will see an end to not just our sport, but civilian firearm ownership and ultimately liberty itself.

I couldn't sell a $5 note for $2 and I am NOT using this forum as a marketing vehicle.

Not only is that unethical, but this is not a commercial enterprise - something that some seem unable to fathom.

The "Ducks Guts" is this - IT WORKS RELIABLY and DOES have some practical problems. My eyes are not what they were, and RO's tend to be 'gittin on a bit' too, but it's not a show stopper.

We developed this on the Palm platform because it was better than others, and we knew that old palms will be increasingly affordable.

As everything in USA seems to resolve to the almighty dollar, would you be prepared to pay $15 per annum for unlimited use anywhere to enjoy the benefits of dynamic scoring that matches our dynamic sport?

I'll leave it there.

Peter Cunningham (ass@acenet.com.au)

[JThompson]

As everything in USA seems to resolve to the almighty dollar, would you be prepared to pay $15 per annum for unlimited use anywhere to enjoy the benefits of dynamic scoring that matches our dynamic sport?

I'll leave it there.

Peter Cunningham (ass@acenet.com.au)

Yes. I would be willing to go for that... the time saved by the stats people alone is worth that. As long as it's a flat fee... no hidden "gotchas." I would also agree that some form of paper backup should be used. If there's is one constant in the electronic world... it's failure.

PS Be careful with statements the USA is only concerned with money... we sure do send a lot of it around the world for those who need it. I don't know about others, but that type of statement tends to raise my blood pressure a few points.

Cheers

Edited August 5, 2008 by JThompson

[Hoofy]

If the system gets upgraded to remove the zeroes, that will be a plus.

With current pricing, that should only cost $50 per copy.

Yes, that was meant as a shot across the bow on pricing. Now that we have your attention...

My club looked at purchasing the system 8 months ago because of all the wonderful things we had heard about it.

Rob's and USPSA's work on EZ Win Score and interface sounded promising.

We decided that it was cost prohibitive, even though we've already purchased the Palm devices at close to $25/copy.

The money was used on props instead. The decision was based on what our customers wanted, quicker scoring or better stages.

Matches scored accurately and quickly is a huge benefit. After spending an entire day setting up, shooting and tearing down a match,

the last thing that anyone wants to do is stare at a computer screen for hours for little more than a pat on the back.

I applaud your work on the system. I think that it could easily become the standard for scoring matches at the local level.

Our club would gladly pay an annual fee that we could work into the budget. It would assure us of software updates and would be easy to justify.

As the vendor, set the price. As the customer, I'll decide to spend the money.

My only suggestion is: it is better to sell 1000 widgets at $20 than to sell 10 widgets at $1000.

[moverfive]

This system is definitely not cheap. But for clubs that regularly attract larger crowds of shooters, the time the scorekeeper will have to spend actually makes this investment pay dividends immediately. For the smaller clubs.....yeah, I would agree it may be cost prohibitive.

After having dealt with this system in two different clubs and actually starting it from the group up in one of them, I can tell you that the learning curve is very short. In fact, most people only need to training for a couple of shooters and after that, they know just about everything they need to operate the basics. When we started this system at one club, we planned for a three to four month phase-in.......by the second month we were fully on the Palms. We tried to go slow but the ease of this system negated that.

For the requirements of creating stages and basic match administration, probably a couple of matches and some playing around at home would be sufficient for most to have a good comfort level.

The only problem we had with this system was due to how our club operates and the typical volume of shooters we have and/or may have at the match. And to address those problems, I was able to modify a spreadsheet that addressed our needs. Now that modification is definitely something that the average Joe may not be able to do.....but for a single match and/or having the opportunity to register everyone prior to the day of the match, this system is actually quite easy and will not need anything special.

[D.Hayden]

What currently produced systems does this run on now?

[pskys2]

The only "Little" problem with the whole system was some RO's would put down the HF and some wouldn't, til you asked. It's all right there. I liked it, and it did seem to help the RO's run a bit quicker. It held up well in triple digit heat at Area 3!

The only problem I observed with an RO using one had to do with the RO thinking he had lost all the hits on a competitor. It turned out he had hit the NEXT button and was on that shooters next stage. Someone with knowledge came up and easlily went right back to where everything was and viola! all worked out well.

Maybe the next version, or "Big Match Version", would allow a Stage to be locked in and not easily left? Or maybe it's already that way and someone found a hole?

My guess is it will ultimately save from entry error at the keyboard. Plus save the poor stats from blindness.

But having 1 thoroughly trained RO on a Stage would seem wise. Chris has a real good idea with the certification process, maybe part of the CRO training?