Religious Shooter Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 What do you guys prefer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 what the heck is a flipper target ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted May 22, 2008 Author Share Posted May 22, 2008 It is essentially a shotgun target(s) consisting of a Popper and a clay bird. You shoot the Popper and the falling Popper smacks a lever. The lever goes down and flips up a clay target in the air... which you shoot. This is MGM's version of a Flipper (AKA "Pigeon Flipper"): http://mgmtargets.com/products/poppers.shtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Ho Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 If yes, Amount? None Do I detect a small amount of bias in your question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cksh8me Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 The more the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maineshootah Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 The more the better. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted May 22, 2008 Author Share Posted May 22, 2008 (edited) If yes, Amount?None Do I detect a small amount of bias in your question? Who isn't biased? If you noticed I had "None" as a choice. So I'm not exactly following you. NOTE: For the record... I voted "YES" and "Bring 'Em On." Edited May 22, 2008 by Religious Shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 The more the better. +1 More is better and especially if shooters do not do the reset. Let's go one better and even have some traps throwing clays. Big matches can afford things that little matches can not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 If it was traps throwing I would be okay with it. At least those are consistent. I've seen flippers do so many weird things, I just don't think they should be allowed. The worst is when the wind catches them and the fly at or over the shooters. I've seen a couple folks tracking the bird that nearly broke 180 or fired almost vertically. I don't like lead raining down on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Ho Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 If yes, Amount?None Do I detect a small amount of bias in your question? Who isn't biased? If you noticed I had "None" as a choice. So I'm not exactly following you. NOTE: For the record... I voted "YES" and "Bring 'Em On." I just thought it was a little funny. First there was a 'should we use them?' yes/no question. Then 'If yes, amount'. One of the possible answers on the if yes part was None. Two chances to vote no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Why is this question in a match announcement topic, is there a date or location for your match? Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug H. Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 R&R Racing had a couple of double flippers on stage 7 at the X3 Multigun match. I hit both poppers and had all four clays in the air at once! They seemed to be very consistent, throwing the clays about the same height straight up each time. I say bring them on! Shotguns are for moving targets. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted May 22, 2008 Author Share Posted May 22, 2008 Why is this question in a match announcement topic, is there a date or location for your match?Trapr If you look under the title of the section/forum it says: Match announcements, discussions, reports, rules... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted May 22, 2008 Author Share Posted May 22, 2008 I just thought it was a little funny. First there was a 'should we use them?' yes/no question. Then 'If yes, amount'. One of the possible answers on the if yes part was None. Two chances to vote no. I could be wrong but I think the software doesn't allow you to skip a choice. You either not vote on all the choices or you vote on all of them. That's what I remember from past polls and that's why I put that choice there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Not wanting to drift your thread to its appropriate place, I replied to your comment on a PM. Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigsaxdog Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 (edited) it's amazing how the idea of simplifying matches is so prevalent! every time a hard shot/prop/course, etc. comes along, blah, blah, blah........flippers, movers, shooting from a boat w/flippers and movers and turners...... 40yd pistol poppers....it's all good! some will never grasp the challenge........ Edited May 22, 2008 by bigsaxdog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgkeller Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 be great for the open nationals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 More is better and especially if shooters do not do the reset. Let's go one better and even have some traps throwing clays. Big matches can afford things that little matches can not. They're fun, but shuoldn't be overused. Like Lawman posted, the course designer has to think where they could go. It's easy to get caught up in tracking them. The MGM Ironman used trap throwers last year, with a hand held remote you had to use to 'pull' them. It would be really cool to have them activated more randomly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 I like them and like to use them, BUT they do generate a lot of scoing confusion, Like when a gust of wind makes them fly right at you, or the R.O. doesn't see the little puff of dust from a one to two pellet hit...etc. All of this has ben discussed to death, but we still haven't seemed to reach a quarum on how it all should be scored! KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ap3 Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 There was a good article I read,maybe in Front Sight that was pushing the point that shotgun competition should be more about shooting moving targets and less about how fast can you reload. The author mentioned that this was closer to the true application of a shotgun. I would not want to see stages reduced where you did not have to do a lot of reloading, but adding difficulty to the shooting part of shotgun stages would add to the fun factor. The DPMS Tri-Gun Challenge does a good job in this regard, as does the Kentucky State Multi-gun match. DPMS had a rather large array that was a mover, and this year Kentucky state is going to have a Clay drop turner. The advantage of multi-gun rules of USPSA rules is that flying/disapperaing targets penalize you for the miss. I really think we need to become more creative in shotgun stages, and modify the USPSA rules as they pertain to shotgun stages for disappearing targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ERIC Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 I really like them a lot but I wish they could be consistent. They had 4 of them on one stage at the SMM3G one year. They all seemed to fly nice and high for everyone else but me. I had one only go around 7' high and towards me and there wasn't any wind. Well, I missed it because I engaged other targets before coming back for that flipper. It was a 30 second stage but I got a 10 second penalty. OUCH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cksh8me Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 They will always be inconsistant there's no way to make the consistant. The guy shooting before you shooting 3 3/4 dram 1 1/4oz #4 hitting in the sweet spot is going to toss them much higher than the guy shooting 2 3/4 dram 1oz loads hitting it at the bottom. Or your load and where you hit the activator will make a difference. The guy placeing them on the thrower before you sets it back a little more than the guy who places them a little farther forward for the next guy. The wind came from behind /forward/left/right. When a lapper in the mx race swaps in the whoops and you hit his rear tire that's racing. The pitcher throws everybody ahead of you a fast ball then throws you a curve ball thats the way the game goes. Some guy blows up an engine and spins out collecting you that's racing. Having to shoot LR in the morning when the targets are in the shade Having to shoot LR in the afternoon when the wind was up Having to shoot stage 10 with the sun in your eyes Just like everything else in this game for the good shooters it will make less difference than for the rest of us. The guy that reset the turning target didn't put the pin in as far as the last guy and the target turned just a bit quicker. Bring them on the more the better they add alot of fun to a stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 (edited) I really enjoy shooting them, and nothing beats the thrill of multiple flipper clays in the air at the same time. However, flying clays are too difficult to score fairly. If the RO makes a bad call on whether a clay was broken/chipped/dusted, the competitor has no recourse, and the penalty/lost points are significant under both IMGA and IPSC rules. Its not just the RO calls either - even "real" clay traps can cause problems such as prematurely thrown birds (happened to me at RM3G07) or broken birds (which should require the entire stage to be reshot, but mostly ROs give the shooter the hit anyway). I think they are great for local "fun" shoots, but flying clay bird targets should be avoided entirely at big matches. Edited May 22, 2008 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted May 22, 2008 Author Share Posted May 22, 2008 Are we all in agreement that they are fun? Say we are in agreement and that they are fun. Now ask yourself... why would anybody go to a "big" match if it is less fun (little to no flippers) than a local match (where they use (more) flippers)? You want the shooters to spend more $$$ on gas, more $$$ on fees, more $$$ on bullets, $$$ on lodging, etc... in order to shoot a match that is (potentially) less fun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maineshootah Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Are we all in agreement that they are fun?Say we are in agreement and that they are fun. Now ask yourself... why would anybody go to a "big" match if it is less fun (little to no flippers) than a local match (where they use (more) flippers)? You want the shooters to spend more $$$ on gas, more $$$ on fees, more $$$ on bullets, $$$ on lodging, etc... in order to shoot a match that is (potentially) less fun? I think the issue is not the fun value in the large matches, but rather the consistency of the throws as well as the RO calling / not calling hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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