chill5500 Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 I have been wondering about this for a while, and this may have allready been addressed but here it goes. Can you use something like a spent casing or a tree branch to prop up your gun on stages where you have to start with your gun laying on a table or flat surface? I've seen some new additions to the open guns that mount on the optics, but this is really about a limited gun, and maybe it has something to do with OPEN or LIMITED and so fourth, anyway just curios. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maineshootah Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 I have been wondering about this for a while, and this may have allready been addressed but here it goes. Can you use something like a spent casing or a tree branch to prop up your gun on stages where you have to start with your gun laying on a table or flat surface? I've seen some new additions to the open guns that mount on the optics, but this is really about a limited gun, and maybe it has something to do with OPEN or LIMITED and so fourth, anyway just curios.Thanks This is why clearly written stage descriptions are critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 Can you use something like a spent casing or a tree branch to prop up your gun on stages where you have to start with your gun laying on a table or flat surface? No you may not. If you do, then under 4.5.1 the RO may, at his discretion, issue one procedural per occurrence..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 Can you use something like a spent casing or a tree branch to prop up your gun on stages where you have to start with your gun laying on a table or flat surface? No you may not. If you do, then under 4.5.1 the RO may, at his discretion, issue one procedural per occurrence..... I don't think 4.5.1 would hold up for gun starting position. Just put it in the WSB if you don't want people to prop gun up. gun lying flat, unsupported, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandormen Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 This makes my head hurt... Just getting an idea of putting a 'tree-branch' underneath your gun during competition, makes me think "wtf"? Change Division to Open, and do whatever you want. Why tweak the other categories. It just makes me think 'cheater'. Sorry. can't help it, but that is what flies into my head as soon as i read the first line of the post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 We've beat this horse before. Did you try a search? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dand38s Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 This is why most written stage descriptions clearly state that handgun may not be propped up with any artificial means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 If the WSB says place gun on barrel or table and the stage prop has an irregular surface go for it. Adding additional props would be modifying the course of fire, which isnt allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 Can you use something like a spent casing or a tree branch to prop up your gun on stages where you have to start with your gun laying on a table or flat surface? No you may not. If you do, then under 4.5.1 the RO may, at his discretion, issue one procedural per occurrence..... I don't think 4.5.1 would hold up for gun starting position. Just put it in the WSB if you don't want people to prop gun up. gun lying flat, unsupported, etc. Hmmmm --- here's the rule: 4.5 Rearrangement of Range Equipment or Surface4.5.1 The competitor must not interfere with the range surface, natural foliage, constructions, [props/b] or other range equipment (including targets, target stands and target activators) at anytime. Violations may incur one procedural penalty per occurrence at the discretion of the Range Officer. So, if on a table start stage the table is devoid of any objects for the first competitor, other than the gun, and the table is swept free of casings between shooters, how exactly are you going to position that gun with a casing (or other object) without interfering with the prop (table)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 (edited) Can you use something like a spent casing or a tree branch to prop up your gun on stages where you have to start with your gun laying on a table or flat surface? No you may not. If you do, then under 4.5.1 the RO may, at his discretion, issue one procedural per occurrence..... I don't think 4.5.1 would hold up for gun starting position. Just put it in the WSB if you don't want people to prop gun up. gun lying flat, unsupported, etc. Hmmmm --- here's the rule: 4.5 Rearrangement of Range Equipment or Surface4.5.1 The competitor must not interfere with the range surface, natural foliage, constructions, [props/b] or other range equipment (including targets, target stands and target activators) at anytime. Violations may incur one procedural penalty per occurrence at the discretion of the Range Officer. So, if on a table start stage the table is devoid of any objects for the first competitor, other than the gun, and the table is swept free of casings between shooters, how exactly are you going to position that gun with a casing (or other object) without interfering with the prop (table)? 4.5 deals with range equipment and range surface. Can't move targets, can't move barrels, can't mess with poppers, cn't mess with surface to maybey better locate a shooting position,etc. I see no mention of not being able to prop a gun or make it stand straight up. A competitior could easily prop a gun with one of their own magazines. I would not consider that tampering with range equipment or range surface. Using something to prop a gun has more to do with the starting position which the WSB is for.If you want the gun lying flat, then state it. If it doesn't say you can't, then you can. Edited April 16, 2008 by HoMiE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 4.5 deals with range equipment and range surface. Can't move targets, can't move barrels, can't mess with poppers, cn't mess with surface to maybey better locate a shooting position,etc. I see no mention of not being able to prop a gun or make it stand straight up. A competitior could easily prop a gun with one of their own magazines. I would not consider that tampering with range equipment or range surface. Using something to prop a gun has more to do with the starting position which the WSB is for.If you want the gun lying flat, then state it. If it doesn't say you can't, then you can. So what are you going to use to prop that gun up with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 4.5 deals with range equipment and range surface. Can't move targets, can't move barrels, can't mess with poppers, cn't mess with surface to maybey better locate a shooting position,etc. I see no mention of not being able to prop a gun or make it stand straight up. A competitior could easily prop a gun with one of their own magazines. I would not consider that tampering with range equipment or range surface. Using something to prop a gun has more to do with the starting position which the WSB is for.If you want the gun lying flat, then state it. If it doesn't say you can't, then you can. So what are you going to use to prop that gun up with? One of my guns I don't need to use anything. It has a squared comp and can stand straight up if a table start is required. I could use one of my own magazines with my other guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 4.5 deals with range equipment and range surface. Can't move targets, can't move barrels, can't mess with poppers, cn't mess with surface to maybey better locate a shooting position,etc. I see no mention of not being able to prop a gun or make it stand straight up. A competitior could easily prop a gun with one of their own magazines. I would not consider that tampering with range equipment or range surface. Using something to prop a gun has more to do with the starting position which the WSB is for.If you want the gun lying flat, then state it. If it doesn't say you can't, then you can. So what are you going to use to prop that gun up with? One of my guns I don't need to use anything. It has a squared comp and can stand straight up if a table start is required. I could use one of my own magazines with my other guns. Squared comp -- no issue if the stage description simply reads gun on table. But, if that's what the stage description says, there's no adding a magazine or casing or anything else to a stage prop.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 So let me throw this out there. WSB for a stage says gun lying flat on table. You have a slide racker on your gun. Do you have to start with the gun on the flat side or is using the slide racker to prop gun OK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 (edited) So let me throw this out there. WSB for a stage says gun lying flat on table. You have a slide racker on your gun. Do you have to start with the gun on the flat side or is using the slide racker to prop gun OK? As long as you don't change the COF it's okay... some would argue that point as well, if it's not in the WSB, but if it's attached to the gun you are fine. You can also have wings on an open just for table starts even if it's not a SR. Edited April 16, 2008 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 So let me throw this out there. WSB for a stage says gun lying flat on table. You have a slide racker on your gun. Do you have to start with the gun on the flat side or is using the slide racker to prop gun OK? Slide Racker's fine --- your gun resting on the racker is as flat as it can get; unless you're just adding the racker to the gun for table start stages..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 No prop for you! Next !!! [/soup nazi voice off] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 We have ways of getting around the slide rackers! Bwa-ha-ha-ha! Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 This makes my head hurt...Just getting an idea of putting a 'tree-branch' underneath your gun during competition, makes me think "wtf"? Change Division to Open, and do whatever you want. Why tweak the other categories. It just makes me think 'cheater'.Sorry. can't help it, but that is what flies into my head as soon as i read the first line of the post! What Sandormen said. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chill5500 Posted April 23, 2008 Author Share Posted April 23, 2008 WOW had no idea this was such a sore subject. Just wondering, I guess I should not wonder about things that are not clearly stated in the rule book. Thanks for all the input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlmiller1 Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 I have a slide racker on my limited gun & it just happens to conveniently be there on table starts, as well. For me, it serves several purposes plus it almost always gets at least one "is that legal on a limited gun?" question. It also keeps me from depressing the mag release which can(and has) happen on a table start . Ask all the questions you want. There is no harm in it & some folks just don't think about the way their replies sound. If you are new, it is a really good thing to ask questions. Ignore the rude sounding answers. MLM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 really I think propping is only a perceived advantage.. just learn to pick you gun up off any surface.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrShooter Posted April 24, 2008 Share Posted April 24, 2008 I have a slide racker on my limited gun & it just happens to conveniently be there on table starts, as well. For me, it serves several purposes plus it almost always gets at least one "is that legal on a limited gun?" question. It also keeps me from depressing the mag release which can(and has) happen on a table start . Ask all the questions you want. There is no harm in it & some folks just don't think about the way their replies sound. If you are new, it is a really good thing to ask questions. Ignore the rude sounding answers. MLM OK, I'll bite. Is that legal on a Limited Gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted April 24, 2008 Share Posted April 24, 2008 I have a slide racker on my limited gun ... MLM OK, I'll bite. Is that legal on a Limited Gun? I don't see anything prohibiting it in Appendix D2 of the 2008 Rule Book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted April 24, 2008 Share Posted April 24, 2008 When did this change? Or has it always been legal in Limited? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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