IDPA rules question

[Bones]

I know many skilled competitors who make the most of the berth endemic to the rules in every type of competition to win. I admire their creativity and prowess. Their soul is not my concern. They have a commanding knowledge of the rules and the situation, and they shoot very, very well. You can call that "cheating" if you wish. They have chosen to shoot and learn the game, accepted its structure and succeeded.

I am constantly underwhelmed and disappointed with the people who overtly flout the rules, fail and then cry foul. They have a frail grasp of the rules and the situation and expect their "enthusiasm for creativity" to somehow subsidize a lack of knowledge or shooting skills. It is a failed strategy. We need not amend the rules to accommodate them. There are many other games, as they repeatedly acknowledge, that are readily available to suit their specific needs and styles

"Cheat" and win - clever.

"Cheat" and lose - not so clever.

Craig

Edited April 9, 2008 by Bones

[9x21]

Try to shoot the sport within its own set of rules. If you cannot, then do not shoot that type of match.

Here lies the truth.

After almost 20 years of shooting USPSA, I've lately been trying IDPA and even shot ICORE.

I accept the rules for each organization and enjoy the shooting.

It is way more fun to like the shooting & and enjoy the company, then worry about being a "rules lawyer" for any of the disciplines.

[AikiDale]

IDPA is suppose to mimic a real gun fight, right? Well in a real gunfight you better cheat to win!

But hey, if you are'nt cheating, you are'nt trying hard enough.

I have heard this many times in the attempt to justify round dumping. However, "always cheat, always win" means that, in a real fight to the death, don't let a misguided sense of fair play make you give your opponent a chance to kill you. It does NOT mean it's okay to cheat at the match.

But you will fight as you train, right?

Sorry Duane, I couldn't resist. Resistance is futile after all.

[ima45dv8]

The first part of my post was a jab at IDPA guys that state it is a martial art and not a game.

Thanks for that clarification, Buddy, but maybe these discussions would be more productive if we all avoid the temptation of taking jabs at other shooters.

[redwoods]

Last year I shot an IDPA match and during the reading of the stage description, the SO said to open the door and then draw only when you see a target. Well, upon start signal I drew and opened the door at the same time. I stopped and asked him if I could do it again, he said.......ok. The second time I opened the door, put my hand on my pistol, and then saw the target and drew. He dinged me a 10 second penalty point for anticipating the draw. Is that a valid penalty?

[ajg308]

Last year I shot an IDPA match and during the reading of the stage description, the SO said to open the door and then draw only when you see a target. Well, upon start signal I drew and opened the door at the same time. I stopped and asked him if I could do it again, he said.......ok. The second time I opened the door, put my hand on my pistol, and then saw the target and drew. He dinged me a 10 second penalty point for anticipating the draw. Is that a valid penalty?

There is not a 10 second penalty that I am aware of. There is also no "redos" either. He should have made you keep going ans given you a 3 second pe.

[ajg308]

I am only 28, but I have been shooting some form of shooting competition since I was 12. Many forms of sport out there and I can say that I do not dislike any of them. What I do not understand is people that want to apply other sports rules to another. Learn the game, play by the rules (even if you think they could be better), and have a good time!

[buddy_fuentes]

im45dv8 wrote "Thanks for that clarification, Buddy, but maybe these discussions would be more productive if we all avoid the temptation of taking jabs at other shooters."

Each discussion has many views. And each is productive as it is seen by it's contributor. I see what I wrote as the truth. If I stepped on your toes, I apologize. I thought most folks would see it as tongue and cheek humor. Apparently you and Duane both got something else out of it. Sorry guys.

Would everyone else pleas keep their feet under their chair.

Thanks, Buddy

[Chills1994]

kdmoore on the second page wrote:

I don't think I stated my gripe very well earlier. What I didn't like is that:

a. it encouraged RD'ing. Move one target before or after the doorway if possible, or change the rounds required (IMO).

b. it favored a particular type of ESP guns over other ESP guns.

Maybe not so much the guns but the mags that originally came with them.

If Scooter is shooting a factory/stock 9mm 1911 with 9 round mags that gives him 9+1 at the starting buzzer, but Bubba is using .38 Super mags which will hold 10 rounds (and possibly he had the chamber reamed out just a little bit and is seating 147gr 9mm pro-jo's long) and he ends up with 10 + 1 at the start, well depending on the CoF or the arrays in a stage, one or the other could be at a disadvantage.

That's just the way it is.

I'm sure there are some guys out there shooting ESP with a gun that holds 8 + 1, or maybe even 7 + 1 . They know that they are at a disadvantage.

Basically, this NOT a cheap sport/hobby. You have to pay to play. Even in this game's very limited equipment race.

Me?

If I was SO'ing?

I'd look at a stage the morning of a match and tell the MD that the CoF is too easily round dumpable and try to get it changed before running any shooters through. If it is too late to change it, then I'd just tell the shooters "Don't be stupid. If you're shooting (insert division here), don't round dump here. If you do, you'll get a FTDR!"

[Joe D]

Guys I hear all of your comments as to the gaming/cheating/who knows what aspect of round dumping. The bottom line is not one single SO can read a person's mind. Until I acquire the ability to read a shooters mind I will never, repeat never, give a FTDR for round dumping.

OTOH what do I know about gaming? I guess my Kimber .45 with the 9 round mags that I shoot in ESP would be called a "Gamer Gun". I guess a 230 gr slug screaming along at 550 fps goes against the "spirit of IDPA".

[tgibson]

I have been following this post, and I have noticed quite a few times how gaming and cheating seem to be used as the same word. There is a great article in the latest IDPA journal regarding just this issue. Definately worth the read.

Adios,

TG

[tightloop]

I have been following this post, and I have noticed quite a few times how gaming and cheating seem to be used as the same word. There is a great article in the latest IDPA journal regarding just this issue. Definately worth the read.

Adios,

TG

BIG difference in gaming and cheating.

[9x21]

BIG difference in gaming and cheating.

Worth repeating,

Be a smart shooter, but always follow the rules.

You may not win, but you will sleep better.

Edited April 9, 2008 by 9x21

[Greg Bell]

Greg, you asked, so I'll answer. This is one of the few times I would have called RD'ing. Would have informed the shooter of what I heard and assessed the penalty. I might have prewarned the shooter that I would assess an FTDR if he shot it as I had heard him preplan. If overturned, well that's fine. Our MD's tend to stick by the SO's when within the rules. IMHO, once you've heard it, you shouldn't ignore it. Again, this is one of the times when I'm sure enough to make that call.

Kenneth,

Would you still make that call if you were certain the MD would overturn you? That was my situation. If this had been at my "home" range I would have had the support needed to make a call like that.

In interest of full disclosure I shot it within the rules and did a tac-load to avoid being presented with a disappearing target with only a single round in the gun.

[kdmoore]

Kenneth,

Would you still make that call if you were certain the MD would overturn you? That was my situation. If this had been at my "home" range I would have had the support needed to make a call like that.

If there was a discussion about the "trap" this stage presented 10+1 guns before hand and the MD said "we aren't calling this rule today" ... then no.

Otherwise, yea, I'd award the penalty he earned. I could care less about having the call overturned, but I'd be interested to know why the MD didn't stand by me (did he think I misinterpreted the rules?).

[Duane Thomas]

Until I acquire the ability to read a shooters mind I will never, repeat never, give a FTDR for round dumping.

Yes, I remember you saying so many, many times over the years. Every time you've said that - and I hope this doesn't sound smartass, I assure you that's not my intention, this is a serious question - I've wondered, would it not work, after UASC, to simply ask the shooter, "Did you fire that extra shot so you could go to slidelock at the right time?" If they say no, take their word for it. If they say yes, give them the FTDR - and credit for the testicularity to own up. Maybe the reason people round dump in certain clubs is they know they're not even going to be challenged on it. (?)

[Joe D]

Duane, I am not offended in the slightest. First of all it is a rule that can not be enforced therefore I choose to ignore it.

When do you ask the question? A gamer might choose to round dump two targets before slide lock. A Novice might put three rounds on the target before slide lock. Some choose to put 3 on a swinger. Some choose to put 2 head shots on a target that requires 2 to the body followed by a head shot. Do I ask just Masters or do I draw the line lower? Does a -1 make up shot get the question or does it have to be a -3 or miss? What if there are 3 hits in the -0 but it is a Marksman that shot them? It is a can of worms that I will not waste my time opening.

The problem can go away over night. Either make all stages Limited Vickers or drop the round dumping rule.

I guess Bill Wilson can strip the buttons from my tunic and break my sabre for choosing not to enforce a poorly thought out rule. Let the drum roll start.

[Fireant]

OTOH what do I know about gaming? I guess my Kimber .45 with the 9 round mags that I shoot in ESP would be called a "Gamer Gun". I guess a 230 gr slug screaming along at 550 fps goes against the "spirit of IDPA".

Screaming... now that's funny. I bet you pick them up after the match and use them again don't you Just kidding.

[Joe D]

I reuse the ones that are stuck in the cardboard. You don't have to argue whether or not the grease ring touched the perf - just look at the bullet.

I don't need to use powder either - just a magnum primer.

[Fireant]

Damn, Diet Coke all over the monitor ...again. I really have to stop doing that.

[got glock]

Allow me to tell you a story to add a bit of humor.

I was the MD at a local match and was shooting a stage and shot an make up (honest to god -1 makeup) round on the last target followed by a SLR. My SO was my friend. You know the one that pokes you all week via phone, e-mail and finally in person on match day just to mess with your head. So after I got done shooting he said he just gave me a FTDR for round dumping at which time I told him "I just confered with the match director and you have been overuled" and walked away. We still laugh about it.

[benny hill]

Damn this hurts but I agree with joe D on this one, just get rid of the stupid rule & let people shoot all they want.

[RePete]

yes it is a game. intentional round dumping to gain an advantage is frowned upon and could make you subject to a "failure to do right" (ftdr) 20 second penalty. as you stated, who's to know if you were just trying to make up a shot. it's one of those judgment calls that an s.o. has to make. was it obvious? is it something a particular shooter repeatedly does? it is one of the hardest calls, to give an ftdr, that a s.o. has to make and it will rarely be handed out but the possibility is still there to be penalized.

This is correct.

An FTDR was issued at the Nationals, last year, to a member of an International team. It was noted that round dumping was being done by all of the members, on the same target. The MD was called and it was done in front of him too. So the FTDR was issued.

[boo radley]

I'm no apologist for IDPA, but I don't see how this rule can be removed without completely changing the 'principals.' Seriously -- if you remove the rule, folks WILL throw another shot solely to arrive at a more advantageous slide-lock (albeit now with a clear conscious).

If you're going to permit that...why maintain any of the fiction that you're engaging a scenario? It would be like allowing you to selectively load magazines with different numbers of rounds....

I think JoeD's other suggestion is completely effective -- just make all paper targets Limited -- but how popular would that be?

It's a weird rule, because it's objectively unenforceable, first, and second, there's a perception that other shooters are violating it (and some do), and thus "getting one over on the rest of us," which really does drive people bat-sh*t. Certainly in USPSA, as well, we have a number of niggling equipment rules that are, for all practical purposes, unenforceable as well, but we grumble and comply, because they COULD be enforced if someone wanted to strip down the pistol, examine parts, etc.

[tightloop]

I'm no apologist for IDPA, but I don't see how this rule can be removed without completely changing the 'principals.' Seriously -- if you remove the rule, folks WILL throw another shot solely to arrive at a more advantageous slide-lock (albeit now with a clear conscious).

If you're going to permit that...why maintain any of the fiction that you're engaging a scenario? It would be like allowing you to selectively load magazines with different numbers of rounds....

I think JoeD's other suggestion is completely effective -- just make all paper targets Limited -- but how popular would that be?

It's a weird rule, because it's objectively unenforceable, first, and second, there's a perception that other shooters are violating it (and some do), and thus "getting one over on the rest of us," which really does drive people bat-sh*t. Certainly in USPSA, as well, we have a number of niggling equipment rules that are, for all practical purposes, unenforceable as well, but we grumble and comply, because they COULD be enforced if someone wanted to strip down the pistol, examine parts, etc.

Boo:

The rule should be removed simply because it was poorly conceived, totally subjective when enforced, and serves no purpose other than to create confusion and uncertainty among the shooters...realistically, if you remove the rule, the same people who alter the rounds shot on certain targets, in order to give themselves a "potential" advantage, will do it whether you have a rule or not...that is the fact...and admittedly, some SO's refuse to call the rule...so at its best, it is Selective Enforcement, which is NOT the purpose of any rule...

Concerning the scenario comment...it started out with potential scenarios but quickly outgrew that aspect of the game...I mean, I have shot stages where you were attacked by dogs while cooking at a campfire, while having your hands immersed in a bucket of soapy water while washing your car, while having your pistol at the bottom of a bucket filled with sawdust (I have NO idea what the idea was there)...you get the idea...and even if Mr. Wilson wants to separate his game from IPSC, I have shot stages dragging a dummy with me, handcuffed to a briefcase, having to hold the hand of the MD acting as an executive while you defended him SHO...it finally gets to a point that the possibility for reality gets limited and you start to repeat yourself...it just happens.

The two games are closer than you think. I admire Bill's courage in stepping up to the plate and making a game that does not allow "space guns" with 31+1 mags, and stages which do not advocate a veritable SEA of object targets, and I believe that even though it is a game, simplicity is better in most regards...no swinging bridges, no shooting from a tractor seat, no monkey toss stages, no rollercoaster moving targets...

While this thread had clanked on for three or so pages, what it gets down to is not round dumping...that is mearly subtrafuge for, should I cheat by doing this or not...and you get various input from all sides: ranging from certainly NOT under any circumstances, to the responses from Benny and myself...in the immortal words of Al Davis of the Raiders, "Just WIN, Baby..."

And finally, they did activate a rule that said you had to declare using 7 or 8 round mags when shooting CDP, to eliminate the selective loading of mags as you indicate...that problem caused nearly as many problems as the RD rule has and was finally changed...perhaps, the RD item will go away with the next rules iteration.

I believe that everyone who responded to this thread, while highly controversial, will agree that the game needs certain guidelines and rules, but those guidelines and rules should be well thought out to achieve the desired result without any subjectivity at all, and if there is room for doubt about the subjectivity, you modify the rule/s to create the desired effect and eliminate any and all confusion.

Sounds simple and logical to make it that way...so why is it so hard to accomplish?...Wish I knew.