IDPA rules question

[Chris Conley]

At the most recent IDPA match I guess you could say that I gamed a stage. COF had you engage 5 targets and then open a door and engage 4 more with a swinger. What I did was shoot the 5 targets and dumped the last round in the last target so I could do a reload before I got to the door. One guy told me that gaming like that was illegal in IDPA and I should have gotten a penalty. I told him "isn't what we are doing a game?". Question is who's to say that I thought that I had a miss on the last target and made it up? Not trying to bust any chops here but is it a real rule?

Chris C.

Edited April 7, 2008 by Chris Conley

[dr2e]

yes it is a game. intentional round dumping to gain an advantage is frowned upon and could make you subject to a "failure to do right" (ftdr) 20 second penalty. as you stated, who's to know if you were just trying to make up a shot. it's one of those judgment calls that an s.o. has to make. was it obvious? is it something a particular shooter repeatedly does? it is one of the hardest calls, to give an ftdr, that a s.o. has to make and it will rarely be handed out but the possibility is still there to be penalized.

[Chris Conley]

I was down one on that target. The follow up shot was down zero so who's to say. Thanks for the clarification. I don't shoot much IDPA but I bet if I was at Nationals they would have busted me.

Chris C.

[kdmoore]

I was down one on that target. The follow up shot was down zero so who's to say. Thanks for the clarification. I don't shoot much IDPA but I bet if I was at Nationals they would have busted me.

Chris C.

It's oft talked about. search on "dump" in the IDPA section and you'll see what many people think about it, including me. And there was a FTDR given at the last nationals for dumping.

It is hard to call, which makes it the problem child it is. As an SO, if I heard you saying the extra round was done to time a reload, then it's a no brainer.

BTW, it is a game, so yea it does have rules. Which is why if you break rules and earn a penalty it's not a big deal.

[Chris Conley]

Keep in mind that I only shoot IDPA if there is nothing else going on and that I am not a member. Could I have dropped the empty mag with one in the chamber. It's empty when it hits the ground or does it have to be all the way to slide lock to change the mag.

Chris C.

Edited April 7, 2008 by Chris Conley

[SDM]

Shoot the "special round" on the first or second of the five targets.

How much time did this save do you think, compared to opening the door, shooting one, then reloading?

[Chris Conley]

Shoot the "special round" on the first or second of the five targets.

How much time did this save do you think, compared to opening the door, shooting one, then reloading?

Oh, about 2 seconds.

Chris C

[RobMoore]

I wouldn't say the scenario laid out in post #1 was gaming. I'd say it was cheating.

Read the rulebook, that very thing is listed specifically as an act which should incur the FTDR 20 second penalty.

Gaming isn't cheating. Gaming is acting within the rules looking for the competitive edge.

[Joe4d]

I wouldn't say the scenario laid out in post #1 was gaming. I'd say it was cheating.

Read the rulebook, that very thing is listed specifically as an act which should incur the FTDR 20 second penalty.

Gaming isn't cheating. Gaming is acting within the rules looking for the competitive edge.

Yep that was cheating, the fact that you asked the "whose to say question" leads me to believe you knew about the round dumping rule. But even if it was an innocent sport crossover breaking of the rule by your own admission you round dumped . The SO should have given you the FTDR. SO's need to get through their heads that giving penalties when due is not "screwing someone over" not giving penalties screws over everyone else who follows the rules. As a side note I dont see how it could save you 2 seconds when you factor in the time for the extra shot compared to doing a RWR on the way to the door.

[Joe D]

I will never give out any penalty for round dumping. It is an unenforceable rule. I cannot read your mind.

[racerba]

As a side note I dont see how it could save you 2 seconds when you factor in the time for the extra shot compared to doing a RWR on the way to the door.

You have to reload anyway so:

Shoot the extra round = .5 sec max.

Retaining the mag = .5 sec min.

Edited April 7, 2008 by racerba

[Clyde]

Could I have dropped the empty mag with one in the chamber.

Chris C.

This action would have earned you a procedural. Gun has to be Empty to leave a Mag on the ground. (Slide locked is not required but firearm must be empty)

The general thinking is that if the slide is locked back the mag is empty - dump it - slide not locked back stow the mag.

[Gregg K]

Shoot the "special round" on the first or second of the five targets.

How much time did this save do you think, compared to opening the door, shooting one, then reloading?

Oh, about 2 seconds.

Chris C

You probably need to check your math on this. A premeditated dump (cheating) would take about .2 to fire the round and a reload with retention would add about .5 over a slide lock reload so net gain would maybe amount to .3. Alternatively you could shoot to slide lock after opening door, reload and reacquire first target should add an extra transition of say about .3. The bottom line is to cheat may gain .3 and risk 20 seconds for FTDR and be branded a cheater and get extra scrutiny from all the SO's from that point on. This one is a no brainer.

Edited April 7, 2008 by Gregg K

[tightloop]

Deleted by moderator.

[Bear23]

I know i can't do a reload with retention in .5 seconds... I can do a conventional reload, what IDPA calls a speed reload in under a second, on a good day. My best reloads with retention, with cover garment run about 1.75 to 2seconds. This is behind a barricade at a 10 yard target.

Round dumping is a hard call. Shouldn't be in the book in my opinion.

[dand38s]

It is a game. If you don't like their rules, then don't shoot their game. It really is simple, if it is against the rules and you did it, then it is cheating. Then again it is a stupid rule in my opinion. You know what they say about opinions though.

[kdmoore]

I know i can't do a reload with retention in .5 seconds... I can do a conventional reload, what IDPA calls a speed reload in under a second, on a good day. My best reloads with retention, with cover garment run about 1.75 to 2seconds. This is behind a barricade at a 10 yard target.

Round dumping is a hard call. Shouldn't be in the book in my opinion.

Well said Rob. But it does appear the Chris found out about the rule after the fact, when the SO talked to him about it. Then he started to figure it all out.

Chris, Doesn't sound like you shoot IDPA very often, so I sympathize with you. I know this will likely go against the spirit of the USPSA shooter in you (my assumption) who may actively look for ways others haven't discovered to shoot a stage. But if I were in your shoes, I'd ask about anything I planned to do that other shooters weren't doing.

Gregg's response has many good points. ".... risk 20 seconds for FTDR and be branded a cheater and get extra scrutiny from all the SO's from that point on. This one is a no brainer. " The risk reward doesn't warrant it.

BTW, The rwr isn't spec'd at being .5 seconds, it's .5 seconds above a slidelock reload. That's a pretty close estimate if you even practice it 10 minutes

You've probably hit on the most debated issue there, so if you can get past this you should find the shooting much smoother.

So, I know this isn't the gyst of this issue, but am I the only one bothered by this stage design. It really does favor the 9+1 9mm ESP gun, and it really does invite RD'ing. I'd rather have seen 7-8 rounds before the door ...

Edited April 7, 2008 by kdmoore

[AikiDale]

At the most recent IDPA match I guess you could say that I gamed a stage. COF had you engage 5 targets and then open a door and engage 4 more with a swinger. What I did was shoot the 5 targets and dumped the last round in the last target so I could do a reload before I got to the door. One guy told me that gaming like that was illegal in IDPA and I should have gotten a penalty. I told him "isn't what we are doing a game?". Question is who's to say that I thought that I had a miss on the last target and made it up? Not trying to bust any chops here but is it a real rule?

Chris C.

Of course it is a game. If it has rules or keeps score it is a game.

As any game has rules they fall into two major divisions I think. Rules to insure fair play and rules to make the game more interesting. The reload with retention rule makes the game more challenging. When I first shot IDPA I was frustrated and angry by the rules because I had been led to believe IDPA folks thought they were being more 'practical' than other shooting sports and many of the IDPA rules violated principles of combat I had learned from personal protection, law enforcement and military focused instructors. I got dinged once for putting 3 rounds into the head of a target which was supposed to get 2 to the body and one to the head. The torso was largely obscured by no shoots so I put three to the head. That may have been 'realistic' or 'practical' but it violated the rules of the game. (I still maintain the head is part of the body.)

Stupid rules are everywhere. Offensive pass interference comes to mind. I don't even want to think about the rules of Cricket.

Game on!

[Chills1994]

Here's a thread I started way back in December of 2005:

Round Dumping to Slide Lock

It had 88 replies and 2,623 views before it got locked down.

kdmoore wrote:

So, I know this isn't the gyst of this issue, but am I the only one bothered by this stage design. It really does favor the 9+1 9mm ESP gun, and it really does invite RD'ing. I'd rather have seen 7-8 rounds before the door ...

I am of the opinion that if IDPA is trying to emulate real world possible shooting situations, then there shouldn't really be "revolver friendly", or CDP friendly, or ESP friendly situations set up in a stage. The "arrays" in a CoF "is what they is".

The OP was asking about it because the SO said something to him after the stage. If the SO had NOT said anything to him, I don't think he would have known any better for a long time to come and he wouldn't be here starting a thread on it. If the SO at that IDPA style... that's style... match had not said anything to me back in November/December 2005 I would NOT have know about it either and I wouldn't have started a thread that eventually spiraled down into getting locked down.

kdmoore also wrote:

It's oft talked about. search on "dump" in the IDPA section and you'll see what many people think about it, including me. And there was a FTDR given at the last nationals for dumping.

Yes, a female shooter from Team Trinidad Tobago got dinged with the 20 second FTDR at the 2007 IDPA Nat's for round dumping. As I had the scuttlebutt relayed to me, she basically took one for the team because all of her fellow team members had round dumped on the exact same target in that particular stage. The MD watched this go on for a few Team TT shooters and IIRC the MD told the SO to give the FTDR.

That subject has been hashed, re-hashed, and hashed again in this IDPA rules subforum.

Probably all of those threads got locked down too.

If I was SO'ing a stage that leant itself to round dumping, I would verbalize a warning to NOT round dump when I read the CoF description, i.e. "Round dumping in this array will get you an FTDR!!"

That would seem like the right thing to do. Forewarned is forearmed.

(slight thread drift on)

All this talk about ESP friendly this or CDP friendly that, just makes me want to design a stage where every other target gets Mozambiqued (MBQ'ed) and it's up to the shooter's discretion as to which ones get 3 vs. just 2 .

Edited April 7, 2008 by Chills1994

[Chris Conley]

Thanks for all the replies. I understand and didn't want to get a hornets nest started.

Mods, please lock this thread if you must. Sorry about all this.

Thanks,

Chris C.

Edited April 7, 2008 by Chris Conley

[rvb]

I got dinged once for putting 3 rounds into the head of a target which was supposed to get 2 to the body and one to the head. The torso was largely obscured by no shoots so I put three to the head. That may have been 'realistic' or 'practical' but it violated the rules of the game. (I still maintain the head is part of the body.)

Game on!

thread drift.....

per the rule book, pg 45...

you are correct, the head is part of the body. For that you get -0.

However, you still "may" get a procedural since you are skipping the transition from body to head by putting them all into the head.

This is the most often ignored rule in the new book, imo.

The "may" get a procedural, however, is yet another gray in the black and white of the book.

(With my SO hat on and considering the "may,"-If- I would be inclined to give a PE it would be on a wide open target. Avoiding no-shoots partly covering the "torso", I'd say smart move, no PE. With my shooter hat on if a target requires 2+1 and it's up close, I ask the SO if there is a PE for all 3 in the head. Some say yes, some say no. I've also worked matches where the MD declared 3 to the head was no PE prior to the match starting). As both a shooter and SO I really wish the grey's would be made B/W. Make it a PE or not, I don't care, but the "mays" have got to go!

-rvb

Edited April 7, 2008 by rvb

[Rik]

An extra round or 2 or 3 that doesn't better your score is suspicious. There is no way that a rational person calls making up a 1 down shot with 1 zero shot cheating. What if the make up was for a miss. If a legitimate make up shot is cheating, then it's cheating no matter when or how it's taken.

[nwb01]

I will never give out any penalty for round dumping. It is an unenforceable rule. I cannot read your mind.

I agree completely, how does anyone know what you saw in your sight picture. If you felt you needed to make up a shot and it happened to change your reload so be it. Like Joe D said, the SO cannot read your mind.

I shoot an IDPA match nearly every weekend during the summer and most winter weekends, I have never seen the round dumping rule enforced. Should it be? I don't know that it can be.

Nick

[benny hill]

It says shoot all you want & then " ding a ftdr" after you do. But hey, if you are'nt cheating, you are'nt trying hard enough.

[ajg308]

At the most recent IDPA match I guess you could say that I gamed a stage. COF had you engage 5 targets and then open a door and engage 4 more with a swinger. What I did was shoot the 5 targets and dumped the last round in the last target so I could do a reload before I got to the door. One guy told me that gaming like that was illegal in IDPA and I should have gotten a penalty. I told him "isn't what we are doing a game?". Question is who's to say that I thought that I had a miss on the last target and made it up? Not trying to bust any chops here but is it a real rule?

Chris C.

Rulebook assesses and FTDR for this. :20 added to your time. Ouch.