performance

[cnote]

Do classifier stages cause people to choke?

A month or so ago, I observed a shooter who did not shoot up to their capability on the one stage in the match that just happened to be the classifier stage. Smoked the rest of them and won almost every one. Could it have been a fluke, sure. Somebody else mentioned a "term" that i cannot remember to describe the performance. Wouldn't a shooter want to do their best to jump up in their classification? I could compare it to someone being satisfied as a triple-A ball player, and be the star of the team, instead of riding the bench in the majors. I'm not judging, just wondering why it MAY happen. I guess with more experience and more matches, my feelings may differ, but i don't think so.

Thank you

[murkish]

I think the term that you are looking for is "sandbagging." Yes, there are some that would tank a classifier to avoid moving up. One might prefer to go into a big match as a high B rather than a low A.

By the same token, there are others to whom classification is everything. They practice the classifiers pretty much to the exclusion of everything else in order to progress their classification as quickly as possible. You will see some of these A and B shooters get beat regularly by C class shooters in field courses.

I would not worry about it too much. Ultimately, it is you, your gun, the clock and the target. Everything else is illusion.

Regards,

Jack

[cnote]

I think the term that you are looking for is "sandbagging." Yes, there are some that would tank a classifier to avoid moving up. One might prefer to go into a big match as a high B rather than a low A.

By the same token, there are others to whom classification is everything. They practice the classifiers pretty much to the exclusion of everything else in order to progress their classification as quickly as possible. You will see some of these A and B shooters get beat regularly by C class shooters in field courses.

I would not worry about it too much. Ultimately, it is you, your gun, the clock and the target. Everything else is illusion.

Regards,

Jack

Thanks Jack. I guess like everything else in life , balance is the key. Determination and hard work will ultimately earn just rewards. I will try my best.

[G-ManBart]

There certainly are some people that will sandbag classifiers, but there are also some people who just don't shoot them as well as field courses and even others who shoot them better than field courses.

I frequently find that I don't shoot them well because they're "easy" and I'm not keyed up for them the way I am a field course. I don't shoot my best when I'm relaxed...heck, I shoot my best when my stomach is in knots with nerves or I'm a little PO'd. I have found that Steve Anderson's drills have made a big difference in my classifier performance and I've gone up about 5% since starting to use them 6mos ago (give or take). R,

[AlamoShooter]

Do classifier stages cause people to choke?

I think YES , It is most likely the fact that this one stage of the match is ratted on a national level. Shooting well in a club match is nice = but it is a big fish small pond thing.

On the classifier the results are stuck to you, and You will have to carry that one score for years.

Some may think of it like that "For years I will have to carry this score"

My problem with many classifiers, was I trying to shoot to 98% of my capability. and adding in a rush factor to try for 101 %

JF

[EricBudd]

Don't forget the "Hero or Zero" syndrome. Lots of guys go all out on the classifiers and will either burn'em down or crash and burn themselves. Field stages don't have that some sort of pressure.

Just my $.02 and worth every penny. :-)

[el pres]

Do classifier stages cause people to choke?

I think YES , It is most likely the fact that this one stage of the match is ratted on a national level. Shooting well in a club match is nice = but it is a big fish small pond thing.

On the classifier the results are stuck to you, and You will have to carry that one score for years.

Some may think of it like that "For years I will have to carry this score"

My problem with many classifiers, was I trying to shoot to 98% of my capability. and adding in a rush factor to try for 101 %

JF

I have a "real" mental problem with classifiers and now that I've read what you wrote above I can add these worries

in my head while I shoot one also. I liked it better when I just could not verbalize what the problem was !!!

Thanks alot !!!

[HSMITH]

I see people that I know full well are sandbagging to hold their classification down. If that is the level of integrity that they possess I am glad to know it and exactly what kind of person they are. Will save me the time and energy I might have expended on them and I can use that time and energy on something worthwhile.

Grandbagging is just sad really. They work so hard to move the classification up so that they can feel better about themselves, but then Mr. M-Card gets beaten in the match by a couple of good B shooters and his ego takes a high hard one in the....

Shoot the classifier like any other stage, your peers will respect it and your classification will be more indicative or your skill level. Anything else is dishonest.

[cnote]

Do classifier stages cause people to choke?

I think YES , It is most likely the fact that this one stage of the match is ratted on a national level. Shooting well in a club match is nice = but it is a big fish small pond thing.

On the classifier the results are stuck to you, and You will have to carry that one score for years.

Some may think of it like that "For years I will have to carry this score"

My problem with many classifiers, was I trying to shoot to 98% of my capability. and adding in a rush factor to try for 101 %

JF

I have a "real" mental problem with classifiers and now that I've read what you wrote above I can add these worries

in my head while I shoot one also. I liked it better when I just could not verbalize what the problem was !!!

Thanks alot !!!

Great, now I have new baggage to lug around in addition to 1000lb range bag!!

[Flexmoney]

We all choose what we "lug around".

[LPatterson]

If all you think about is the negative of what you did last time then the only thing you will get is what you got last time.

Does anyone think that Tiger Woods gets ready to hit a shot thinking that the last time I hit this shot it went in the water or the sand? I doubt it or he wouldn't be the winner that he is. I think the attitude is called Mental Management.

[Stuck in C]

I regularly tank classifiers. A big part of it is the type of stage they are. Many are Virginia count and also have precise stage descriptions rather than the "shoot as targets are visible" description of field courses. This leads to mental errors and penalties. Which is probably the idea.

[Shaun]

What is the benefit to keeping classification down?

[AlamoShooter]

Do classifier stages cause people to choke?

I think YES , It is most likely the fact that this one stage of the match is ratted on a national level. Shooting well in a club match is nice = but it is a big fish small pond thing.

On the classifier the results are stuck to you, and You will have to carry that one score for years.

Some may think of it like that "For years I will have to carry this score"

My problem with many classifiers, was I trying to shoot to 98% of my capability. and adding in a rush factor to try for 101 %

JF

I have a "real" mental problem with classifiers and now that I've read what you wrote above I can add these worries

in my head while I shoot one also. I liked it better when I just could not verbalize what the problem was !!!

Thanks alot !!!

Sorry I forgot that some people actually read the post...Funny what a point of view can do to your head

[EkuJustice]

They want to keep their class down because at a big match it is alot easier to win in C class than M or GM and they want to win those prizes. We had that alot in skeet when I was shooting that big time which class is based on average. There were some that would shoot the local matches or monthly targets which are just target scores you send in no competition or anything and hit low 80s and stay in about D class or even E in the 12 ga. Go to a big match and shoot to their ability and hit a 98+ and walk away with some nice money gun etc. There was one guy who did this 2 years in a row same shoot bottom class in everything for skeet yet a master class(top class) in sporting clays and clean house in probibally 4 of the 5 guns and HOA for the low class and walked away with a nice 1100 both years and about 20-30 flats of shells a year then had the balls to do it the next year. It is the same thing here it is alot easier for a higher level shooter to beat people who arnt as good as they are. What is great though is when you have a few of them in the same low class same big shoot and someone is gonna loose lol

[Shaun]

Being very new to the sport that seems quite unethical to say the least, but there probably is not much you can do about it? I suppose my priorities could change a bit as I improve (If I do ) but I am doing this because it is fun and I want to see what I am capable of doing. I am not motivated to win, but maybe someday that will make more sense to want to win, but I would like to think I will not want to comprimise my ethics in doing so.

Shaun

[Flyin40]

I think the term that you are looking for is "sandbagging." Yes, there are some that would tank a classifier to avoid moving up. One might prefer to go into a big match as a high B rather than a low A.

By the same token, there are others to whom classification is everything. They practice the classifiers pretty much to the exclusion of everything else in order to progress their classification as quickly as possible. You will see some of these A and B shooters get beat regularly by C class shooters in field courses.

I would not worry about it too much. Ultimately, it is you, your gun, the clock and the target. Everything else is illusion.

Regards,

Jack

Thanks Jack. I guess like everything else in life , balance is the key. Determination and hard work will ultimately earn just rewards. I will try my best.

I used to really "try" on classifiers. The results would vary, hero or zero comes to mind. It ended up moving me up in class to Master rather quickly. My stand and shoot skills far outweighed my field course ability. The end result was I got my ass handed to me at every big match once I was a Master because the classifier type stages are important but won't win you the match. All around consistency on every stage gets you a better finish. When I go up to a classifier now its just like any other stage. I don't try to burn it down to get moved up, I just want a good performance that will factor in and help my overall score. Say a 40 point stage and you burn it down, you beat everyone by 25%. You gained 10 match points. If you mess up and get some no shoots or mikes you could easily only shoot 40-50% of the winner and stand to lose 20pts on a stage. So what are you chances of being able to burn down a classifier type stage on demand vs. having problems and zeroing a stage. For me I'll zero a stage more often than burn it down because I'm trying to burn it down and shooting consciously instead of subconsciously.

My advice would be to not worry about classification, just shoot each stage the same whether they are a classifier or field course. Looking back I will say getting moved up so quickly and getting my butt kicked motivated me quite a bit to balance out my skills so I won't say its all bad.

Flyin

[Chris Keen]

I don't like to win STAGES ....... I like to win MATCHES!

(in other words ... see what Flyin40 said)

[cnote]

I think the term that you are looking for is "sandbagging." Yes, there are some that would tank a classifier to avoid moving up. One might prefer to go into a big match as a high B rather than a low A.

By the same token, there are others to whom classification is everything. They practice the classifiers pretty much to the exclusion of everything else in order to progress their classification as quickly as possible. You will see some of these A and B shooters get beat regularly by C class shooters in field courses.

I would not worry about it too much. Ultimately, it is you, your gun, the clock and the target. Everything else is illusion.

Regards,

Jack

Thanks Jack. I guess like everything else in life , balance is the key. Determination and hard work will ultimately earn just rewards. I will try my best.

I used to really "try" on classifiers. The results would vary, hero or zero comes to mind. It ended up moving me up in class to Master rather quickly. My stand and shoot skills far outweighed my field course ability. The end result was I got my ass handed to me at every big match once I was a Master because the classifier type stages are important but won't win you the match. All around consistency on every stage gets you a better finish. When I go up to a classifier now its just like any other stage. I don't try to burn it down to get moved up, I just want a good performance that will factor in and help my overall score. Say a 40 point stage and you burn it down, you beat everyone by 25%. You gained 10 match points. If you mess up and get some no shoots or mikes you could easily only shoot 40-50% of the winner and stand to lose 20pts on a stage. So what are you chances of being able to burn down a classifier type stage on demand vs. having problems and zeroing a stage. For me I'll zero a stage more often than burn it down because I'm trying to burn it down and shooting consciously instead of subconsciously.

My advice would be to not worry about classification, just shoot each stage the same whether they are a classifier or field course. Looking back I will say getting moved up so quickly and getting my butt kicked motivated me quite a bit to balance out my skills so I won't say its all bad.

Flyin

Sound like a solid game plan that keeps you in the present, instead of the potential future, or the past (which is over and done with) Pratice makes perfect, or as close as we are capable of, I guess.

Thanks guys!

[ChrisStock]

I also tend to crumple under the pressure of classifiers, self inflicted and completely a mental game. Once I master it...look out.

Shoot the classifier like any other stage, your peers will respect it and your classification will be more indicative or your skill level. Anything else is dishonest.

Agreed..pretty damned lame. I hate it when folks do that.

[Ron Ankeny]

As far as I am concerned, the classifiers are typically the easiest courses (those and speed shoots) in a match. You stand in one spot and just shoot. If a person can actually shoot, and if their mental game is solid, they should do as well on the classifer (or better) than they do on the other stages. At one time I thought those Ms and a GM or two looked cool in my wallet. Now I realize what is printed on a card is really of no consequence.

Edited April 9, 2008 by Ron Ankeny

[David2011]

I have always fought the classifiers. They are so short over so fast that any mistake is devastating to the score. For ages I was beating everyone in the "C" Limited class at our range but couldn't get out of "D" because I was always blowing the classifiers. I finally got into "C" and am managing to shoot at the top end of the class at the ranges where I've shot. I know that's not the top of the game but I feel like I'm at least classified at my ability level. My overall match scores are sometimes "B" scores but I guess I get to excited and try to shoot too fast on the classifiers. I am definitely not into sandbagging. We had someone shooting as a "C" shooter at a large match last year win the class in the division with a 72.41% score. "A" class starts at 75% and "C" tops out at 59.9%. I think this guy was sandbagging. He beat the rest of the "C class, all but 2 "B" shooters and all but 3 "A" shooters in Limited out of 30 Limited entries.

David

[Shawn Knight]

I am of the mind to tear them down or crash and burn. I have had some pretty good clasifiers for my skill level but I have also noticed that I have faults that would only be evident to me if I shot certain classifiers. Mostly stuff with weak hand(Golden Bullet). Melody line showed me my transitions needed work and my reloading wasn't quite as good as I though it was. I have taken my time on some of these and I have been told I looked like I was sandbagging even though I can't shoot weak hand to save my ass or some other skill I never practice comes into play.

Some people just want to have a clean run on classifiers too.

[Flyin40]

I don't like to win STAGES ....... I like to win MATCHES!

(in other words ... see what Flyin40 said)

I was talking to Flex on the phone about this exact topic the other day. He brought up an excellent point. If you just try to have a solid performance through all the stages you can sometimes be slow on the time. Your turning in solid performances but not at the top. You still have to attack the stages aggressively in your movements. A good example Flex gave was SmittyFl's performance at the Florida Open Match. Not only did he win the match but he got after every stage. You can tell because he got the most match points for the win but also but also got such a high percentage of the availiable match points. Just a great performance.

Basically you can have a solid performance on every stage but still not be at the top. You still have to attack the stages. It just a fine line how far to push. I quit thinking about "burning a stage down" and try to visualize being smooth and aggressive in movements but still calling each shot. This has been difficult to do. The more running and shooting I do the more my shooting used to go to "just see brown and shoot".

This is probably its own topic

Flyin

[ChrisStock]

If a person can actually shoot, and if their mental game is solid, they should do as well on the classifer (or better) than they do on the other stages.

And THAT is what is killing me now. I'll find my way around it, hopefully sooner rather than later.