Sestock Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 (edited) Here is a quote from another forum, in a discussion on the benefits of weaver vs. ISO stance. ""Quote: Todd Jarrett Brian Enos Rob Leatham Dave Sevigny All from the world of competition. What conclusions can we draw aside form the fact that Iso is the grip / stance of choice in IPSC? None of those guys has ever been in a gunfight. What conclusions can we draw aside from the fact that people have also used Iso in gunfights and prevailed proving that "Iso works" to use Yeagers words?"" This guy constantly preaches his holier than thou attitude toward competition shooting. I am getting near my wits end in trying to counter him, before he jades all of the forum members aganist competition shooting. He always brings up "never been a gunfight" rational. FYI, as far as I can tell he has never been in a gun fight either. Edited March 24, 2008 by Sestock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Knight Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 Yeah... That'll happen. Good thing the internet is really big! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catfish Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 Right there with ya, bro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 So - ask him outright if he's been in a gunfight, just to find out... Ask him why people that shoot competitions are brought in to teach gun handling skills (that is, grip, stance, recoil control, shoot on the move, target acquisition, shot calling, engagement speed, etc) to guys who get in gunfights far more frequently than the average Joe (can you say HRT, SWAT, military operators... so on an so forth) - and why those folks are being taught a modified iso stance... You could also point out that, under stress, the body will naturally find something very close to iso anyway, due to flinch response... and that several studies have shown (don't ask me to reference them - but if you dig them up, let me know... if really needed, I'll ping my source and see if he knows where they are) that even people who've trained extensively using Weaver end up using iso when they actually end up in a real gunfight, again due to flinch response. So, why train with something you're never going to use anyway?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 I guess facts should never get in the way. History of the "Weaver Stance" The excitement and challenge of wide open competition was what led Jack Weaver to develop the Weaver Stance, with the sole purpose of winning Jeff Cooper's "Leatherslap" competition in Big Bear, California. In Cooper's own words, "It began in 1956 at Big Bear when I set up the first Leatherslap. As far as I know, it was the first match of its kind held anywhere in the world. It was unrestricted as to technique, as to weapon, as to caliber, as to holster, as to profession. It was a straight quick-draw match — just draw and hit a target at seven yards." Weaver Stance History Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catfish Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 So, why train with something you're never going to use anyway?? Because, dear sir, that wouldn't be tacti........ never mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 (edited) I am getting near my wits end in trying to counter him, before he jades all of the forum members aganist competition shooting..... Dude, you're wasting your time, the gun rags have made us (IPSC shooters) out to be fakes who don't know how, with expensive toys. I'm up against that all the time, the "tactical snake oil salesmen" out there who can't the berm safely but claim to teach "tactics". Just 'cuz you know the truth, don't mean he's ready to hear it. There ain't no fixin' it, walk away..... So - ask him outright if he's been in a gunfight, just to find out... Ask him why people that shoot competitions are brought in to teach gun handling skills (that is, grip, stance, recoil control, shoot on the move, target acquisition, shot calling, engagement speed, etc) to guys who get in gunfights far more frequently than the average Joe (can you say HRT, SWAT, military operators... so on an so forth) - and why those folks are being taught a modified iso stance... You could also point out that, under stress, the body will naturally find something very close to iso anyway, due to flinch response... and that several studies have shown (don't ask me to reference them - but if you dig them up, let me know... if really needed, I'll ping my source and see if he knows where they are) that even people who've trained extensively using Weaver end up using iso when they actually end up in a real gunfight, again due to flinch response. So, why train with something you're never going to use anyway?? Good stuff Dave. You mean the fakes don't get to train the snake eaters? You mean they bring in actual SHOOTERS to train people how to shoot??? What a freakin' concept?!?!? Edited March 24, 2008 by dirtypool40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 One nifty thing about iso that's being taught now at some places and that might have cred with the tacticool set is the fact that the ballistic plates in body armor are in a lot of vests are in the front and back, not the sides. Thus, when you're expected to face high velocity rifle rounds, it behooves you to square up to the bad guys when shooting back, so that if you take a hit, it'll hit the plate instead of the softer sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sestock Posted March 24, 2008 Author Share Posted March 24, 2008 Another qoute from this guy. "From what I know and who I know in the training industry, neither Jarret's or Rob's "training gigs" impress me." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Knight Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 One nifty thing about iso that's being taught now at some places and that might have cred with the tacticool set is the fact that the ballistic plates in body armor are in a lot of vests are in the front and back, not the sides. Thus, when you're expected to face high velocity rifle rounds, it behooves you to square up to the bad guys when shooting back, so that if you take a hit, it'll hit the plate instead of the softer sides. Don't forget your secure communications devices, and no you cannot get them at Radio Shack. Military frequencies are scrambled using a 256 bit encryption algorithm, and it is well-nigh uncrackable in any reasonable amount of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFlowers Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 Not only to Rob and company get brought in to train SWAT, HRT, etc, lets not forget the AMU who bring the things that work from competitive shooting back to the boys in uniform to help make them better. And while Rob and company might not have been in a gunfight, I bet you could find a lot of shooters at any given match who have, either in blue or in camo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 Here you go. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=62202 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 The internet (and a lot of the world in general) is filled with a$$hats with opinions that are not far from arguing that the world is flat. I personally find it better not to engage these folks as it is never a dialogue. They are just waiting for you to stop speaking so they can spew some more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 nuff said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 Yea .... what he said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 Ahhh forgetaboutitt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 WHo's sig says something like... never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. That one seems to apply well here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scirocco38s Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 Here is a quote from another forum, in a discussion on the benefits of weaver vs. ISO stance.""Quote: Todd Jarrett Brian Enos Rob Leatham Dave Sevigny All from the world of competition. What conclusions can we draw aside form the fact that Iso is the grip / stance of choice in IPSC? None of those guys has ever been in a gunfight. What conclusions can we draw aside from the fact that people have also used Iso in gunfights and prevailed proving that "Iso works" to use Yeagers words?"" This guy constantly preaches his holier than thou attitude toward competition shooting. I am getting near my wits end in trying to counter him, before he jades all of the forum members aganist competition shooting. He always brings up "never been a gunfight" rational. FYI, as far as I can tell he has never been in a gun fight either. I would bet this same guy making this noise, has probably gone to a ipsc match thought he would rule the roost and got his ass handed to him by a c-class shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyZip Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 Yeager who? Why do we train to shoot so well? Not just to win in competition, I hope, but to make us better pistol shooters in general. Practice, training, is what makes you more likely to suvive should you need to defend yourself with your weapon. (Should you have the misfortune to have to.) Try if you can and remember those things that we know will make us better shooters. The other stuff from the likes of this, whatshisname will be forgotten or ridiculed for what it is when we see it less and less over time. "Square-up and open both eyes. Don't close your left, that'll block you vision on that side and make you vulnerable." That's what my old man always said. I used to get so tired of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 Another qoute from this guy."From what I know and who I know in the training industry, neither Jarret's or Rob's "training gigs" impress me." Hmmm....I would love to know the details of "what I know and who I know in the training industry". Sounds like he knows one person and they happen to agree with one another. I know, for a fact, that some of the most quoted, most respected folks teaching new firearms instructors how to do their job are very impressed with both TGO and TJ's "training gigs". At JT mentioned, I think my sig line might apply here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 Another qoute from this guy."From what I know and who I know in the training industry, neither Jarret's or Rob's "training gigs" impress me." Hmmm....I would love to know the details of "what I know and who I know in the training industry". Sounds like he knows one person and they happen to agree with one another. I know, for a fact, that some of the most quoted, most respected folks teaching new firearms instructors how to do their job are very impressed with both TGO and TJ's "training gigs". At JT mentioned, I think my sig line might apply here Ha! I knew someone had that line, but couldn't remember who.... hell to get old and senile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 I went to Gunsite several years ago, before I got started in competitive shooting. They taught Weaver, but were in no means dogmatic about it. Our instructor said that if you were more comfortable with Iso. to use that. They were all about the hits. What stance am I using shooting weakhanded leaning around a barricade? I don't know. I do know sight alignment and trigger control, and seem to fall back on that alot. Just ignore the guy, invite folks to matches, those who desire to learn will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 I have several friends that have been in several gun fights, to a person they have used ISO & will tell you weaver is outdated years ago. They have been there & done that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Nesbitt Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 In the latest issue of "American Handgunner" there is an interview with Jack Weaver. The last sentence in the article is Jack saying to the interviewer; "If you find something that works better for you, why, go for it." I guess that means Jack Weaver would approve Iso if it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jam-man Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 Another qoute from this guy."From what I know and who I know in the training industry, neither Jarret's or Rob's "training gigs" impress me." Shot an ISPC match at Range 14/Ft. Bragg a couple of weeks ago. Guess who was there? TGO/Rob Take it for what it is worth, Range 14 is right beside this big compound surrounded by lots of wire and angry looking guards. Better know has the Compound for Delta Force or so I have heard. Now this match is no big deal, no sponsors, no spectators etc. I will let you draw your on conclusion what TGO was doing there. Of course your buddy who already knows everything knows people in the trainging industry. I use to waste time on GlockTalk etc with clowns who shoot 50 rounds a year and know it all, I gave it all up and thankfull I found this forum to get true advice from experinced shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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