alzo Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Viewing many posts here and at other forums over the years, I have seen many people express their opinion that a particular Vihtavuori powder was great, but too expensive compared to other powders that were almost as good. The impression is generally that, if money were no object, many more people would be using Vihtavuori powders. When I look at the numbers, I really don't see a huge difference. Sure, if you look at the cost of a pound of powder, Vihtavuori's prices look super high. But if you take into account the amount of each powder you would need per round for your purposes, the cost difference may not be as big as you think. I have attached a small example spreadsheet in which I compared Viht N320, Ramshot ZIP, and W231. The charges shown are, based on my data, generated with my guns, the charges needed of each powder to drive a 45acp 230gr jacketed bullet to about 850fps. One set of numbers is for a 1 lb bottle of each, and the other is for a 4 lb bottle of each. For 1000 rounds, the cost difference between N320 and W231 is less than $5 (less than $3 for the 4 lb bottles). These results will, of course, vary depending on the type of load you shoot. I just thought I'd throw this out there just to make folks aware that there's more to consider than just the price tag on the bottle, and that powder is probably not the biggest contributor to the cost of your ammo. So if you're one of those people who loves Vihtavuori, but don't use it because you think it is too expensive, you might want to crunch your numbers. It might not be as bad as you think. Powder_Comparison.txt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Well I could say for 40. you would use about the same amount, if not less, of Tightgroup compared to N320 and over thousands of rounds that difference is huge. N320 is like $23.99 while TG is still at $14.99 If you want to get really crazy you could load Clays and save even more . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alzo Posted March 13, 2008 Author Share Posted March 13, 2008 (edited) You want to compare similar burn rate powders. Clays and Titegroup might be better compared to N310 instead of N320. But as I said, the calculation varies depending on one's specific type of load. Also, different folks care about certain powder characteristics more than others. My post was mostly for the "I'd be using Vihtavuori if it weren't so expensive" crowd. Edited March 13, 2008 by alzo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 For 10 dollars more per pound, I just thought that the VV powders didn't live up to all their hype of being the cleanest powder. I still have to clean my guns, so I might as well use a powder that is 10 dollars cheaper per pound... Like when was the last time I ever bought a pound of powder anyway? I always buy at least 4 pounds, and if there is an 8 pound keg, I'll get that instead. More savings that way. I took just about everyone's advice here: Titegroup for 9's and minor 40, and Clays for .45. And, I'm not looking back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ipscbob Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 The real issue is that the availability of VV powders is much worse than winchester, hodgdon, etc. I agree that the cost is somewhat insignificant in the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alzo Posted March 13, 2008 Author Share Posted March 13, 2008 The real issue is that the availability of VV powders is much worse than winchester, hodgdon, etc. I agree that the cost is somewhat insignificant in the long run. I tend to order powder online when buying 4lb bottles. I've not seen any trouble with availability via that route. The local shop is another story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shay1911 Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 I have found Ramshot Competition to be almost identical in all characteristics, except much cheaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alzo Posted March 13, 2008 Author Share Posted March 13, 2008 (edited) I have found Ramshot Competition to be almost identical in all characteristics, except much cheaper. I've heard that more than once. It would be good if Ramshot would develop some data for Competition in the more popular calibers. I'm not trying to convince people to go with Vihtavuori. I like their powders a lot, but I also have had great results with Ramshot ZIP in 45acp. The data that Ramshot lists for 45acp 230gr bullets and ZIP is not correct. They will give you the correct data if you call/email. I don't know why they don't update their load guide. Edited March 13, 2008 by alzo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlmiller1 Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Since I bought my first bottles of V.V. I've never found anthing else that works as well for me. Others have other opinions but as long as I can get it, that is what I plan to shoot. To each their own, though! MLM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 I have stayed with VV N-320 in Limited due to consistancy. The loads do not vary with the temperature and it does burn clean in my guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmitchl Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 I reload to get ammo that performs as I prefer. In working up a load I try a number of different powders frequently starting with the recommendations I find here. When I find the one I like best I use it. Powder is such a small component in the cost to reload it makes no sense to compromise on your choice to save a few pennies. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCNet Posted March 15, 2008 Share Posted March 15, 2008 Alzo, I've just started reloading and came to the same conclusion you did. The powder is the least expensive component of the round and I calculated it would be only $7-$15/1000 more to load with VV than some of the other brands I was considering. With all the praise I hear/read about VV powders, that didn't seem like a whole lot. I've only found it locally in 1lb containers, and I pick one up whenever I stop by Sportsman's Warehouse so that I always have 2lbs in reserve in case there is a dry spell. I wish I could find it locally in 4lb containers, and have considered mail ordering it, but with the shipping and hazardous cargo charges, it's still just slightly cheaper buying it 1lb at a time. RCNet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johes Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 (edited) I reload to get ammo that performs as I prefer. In working up a load I try a number of different powders frequently starting with the recommendations I find here. When I find the one I like best I use it. Powder is such a small component in the cost to reload it makes no sense to compromise on your choice to save a few pennies. Keith Your last sentence about says it all, if you're going to save enough on your reloading to matter, you're not going to do it with powder selection. Joe Edited March 25, 2008 by johes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scirocco38s Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 I reload to get ammo that performs as I prefer. In working up a load I try a number of different powders frequently starting with the recommendations I find here. When I find the one I like best I use it. Powder is such a small component in the cost to reload it makes no sense to compromise on your choice to save a few pennies. Keith Your last sentence about says it all, if you're going to save enough on your reloading to matter, you're not going to do it with powder selection. Joe You're so very right. As long as I can find VV powder that is what I will shoot. If the powder they have doesnt suit my purpose then I will buy something else, but otherwise it is 320 for limited and 3n38 for open. The other calibres will be changed over as I run out of the original powders I started their loads with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 (edited) My experience in 9 major was that the VV powder just didn't perform any better than the Silhouette I switched to. Couple that with the fact that the Silhouette was more available, there didn't seem to be any reason to use the VV. $15 a thousand may not seem like that much more but over a season shooting 15K rds that buys me 3000 bullets Edited March 25, 2008 by smokshwn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 Powder is such a small component in the cost to reload it makes no sense to compromise on your choice to save a few pennies. Keith I could counter that by saying... Powder is such a small component in the performance that it makes no sense to spend hundreds of extra dollars... It's good to do the math...whichever way you look at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gm iprod Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 The main issue is not what the actual difference between one can of each powder is. It's the big picture. If I only shot 2-3000 rounds a year then I would use what ever was absolutely the best regardless of cost, we would only be talking 2lbs or so of powder a year. BUT, I just bought 16lbs of TG, that equates to a $160US difference. Up there that's two tanks of gas, 2000 115gr JHP Zero's, 6000 Federal Primers. Four pairs of shoes for the kids (which by the way is worth it's weight in gold for the domestic credit account). I love VV N320 it is a little cleaner than TG (which at minor power factor can be a little sooty in a comped NRA Action Pistol), I use TG mainly because it gives me the same accuracy, feels a little softer and I get the same velocity from the same weight charge so for the same essential performance at $160 pa cheaper, I go with TG. Other reasons are, I can generally get it when I need to, not so with N320, TG is shipped out of the US two or three times a year, VV comes from Finland via Germany and is shipped to New Zealand once a year maybe, we are currently waiting fo rthe February shipment, it is now due September maybe, I can get TG easier when I travel to the US. The loads are identical for 38Super minor here in New Zealand and when I get in the US. I have a 2kg can of N320 tucked away at home in case the TG gets short, so I always have a back up plan, in case of real emergencies I even have a plan C. They put seat belts in the cars for a reason, you just never know what the other guy is going to do. The simple plan is find what works and find what you can get lots of that works. If it is cheaper than ?? then cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 VV is more expensive whether you consider it significantly more is opinion. As Flex said powder is only a small part of the equation, why spend the extra money? I just cant see VV at $10 a pound more doing anything different than what the powder I am allready using does. Low charge weight, light recoil, accurate, and clean enough to get through a few hundred round match with out a problem. At one time in my life I chased "things" to increase performance and during that time the gunstores never stocked the same VV more than once. Seamed like they were allways out of which ever one I wanted to try. Winchester and Hodgdon were all ways there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddy_fuentes Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 A month or two ago I bought a 4# jug of VV N-320 and it was $81.00 out the door. I load 4.5 grains behind a 185 grain Lead flat nose bullet. There are 7,000 grains in a pound of powder. 7,000 x 4 = 28,000 grains. 28,000 grains divided by 4.5 grains = 6222 bullets loaded from the jug I bought for $81.00. Eighty one dollars divided by six thousand twenty two bullets gives me a cost of .013018322 per round. Yep, a tad more than a penny. If you doubled the price of the powder it would only cost a little more than two cents per round. That is nothing in comparison to the other cost involved in reloading. I know there are powders that are much cheaper, but my loads work and I don't think the cost is too much. Buddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwin garcia Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 Hope this helps: http://web.mac.com/packetdog2000/iweb/ligh...ammocalculator/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SA Friday Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 (edited) Powder is such a small component in the cost to reload it makes no sense to compromise on your choice to save a few pennies. Keith I could counter that by saying... Powder is such a small component in the performance that it makes no sense to spend hundreds of extra dollars... It's good to do the math...whichever way you look at it. I gotta agree with Flex on this one. It's a matter of perspective. Is it .013 cents dollar$ per round or another 3k bullets to practice with. This is the 'real cost' of spending the money on the vv N320 vs shooting TG or Solo 1000. It's the power of purchasing more bullets over the n320 with the money in question, and not a comparison of one powder's price vs another. I've shot all three above mentioned powders and a whole lot more, and ultimately the difference in performance in any of these powders just isn't there for the 'real cost' of the higher priced powder when weighed against another 3k of good bullets. Edited March 25, 2008 by Flexmoney to fix my "quoted" typo :) ...and SA's $$ conversion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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