Law Enforcement Tactical 3 Gun

[Brian Payne]

Benny,

Glad to see you "got my back". Just don't get too close, I'm not into that "Brokeback" stuff.

On a more serious note, I saw the short video clip of you shooting that shotgun side match at the fund raising shoot, awesome - 6.1 seconds if I remember correctly. I would hate for many LEO's to see that, they would never come out and play.

Payne

[J-Ho]

I don't see why some are getting so worked up over this. Yes at first it smells a little funny, but why is it wrong to have a group of people choose to have a shoot involving only members of their group. Ladies shoots are OK, but not cop shoots? Why can't I go to so and so invitational match and shoot? because it's an INVITATIONAL! I know some POlice have bad attitudes and very very little skill, but hell if we can get them comfortable shooting matches by letting them shoot with other cops then maybe they will eventually come and shoot with us peons. Then they can learn how to compete.

[KevinC]

Mr. Houck,

Please add me to your contact list for these matches. Is there a websight where I can see the rules, etc.?

Thanks,

Lt. Kevin Cates

Durham Police Department

505 West Chapel Hill Street

Durham, NC 27701

919-357-6862

kevin.cates@durhamnc.gov

[STInky]

I don't see why some are getting so worked up over this. Yes at first it smells a little funny, but why is it wrong to have a group of people choose to have a shoot involving only members of their group. Ladies shoots are OK, but not cop shoots? Why can't I go to so and so invitational match and shoot? because it's an INVITATIONAL! I know some POlice have bad attitudes and very very little skill, but hell if we can get them comfortable shooting matches by letting them shoot with other cops then maybe they will eventually come and shoot with us peons. Then they can learn how to compete.

+1 !!!!

[benelli2]

I,m getting some LEO folks invovled in shooting with me down here and they may work into doing one of these NRA deals eventually, larry you got to keep us in the loop we can make your job spread without too much trouble I think

jc

[Fullauto_Shooter]

Sounds like currently these competitions are open exclusively to civilian law enforcement. As we (hopefully) move down the road to full inclusion for all citizens - is there a chance the opportunity will be expanded to include military? I'm AD Army and would love to shoot a local match in the CENTEX area.

[kurtm]

A great idea, but here are some thoughts. Now I will preface this with this statement. The things I am saying ARE NOT MENT AS A DETRACTION OF L.E.! These are the problems I have run into both by putting on L.E 3-gun matches ( U.S. Marshals 3-gun, and the Oklahoma SWAT Challenge and Point Blank Boddy Armor 3-gun), and in teaching P.D.s

Most of the P.D.s I have worked with don't like the format of a "match". At the middle management levels They feel their Officers should be working on "tactics" not "match shooting". So your matches will just be drawing individual officers. The other problem here is work schedule Many just can't get off work on the weekends which is when you "civilian worker bees" can put these matches on.

Another problem is the "civilian" police interface ( yes they are civilians, but would prefer not to be called civilians because they like to think of themselves as apart from civilians). The problem here is that most police are suspicious by nature and they will wonder about your intent of putting on the match, and question why anyone like you and your staff have this kind of skill and knowledge. Next question will what are these "civilians" getting out of putting this on. By the end of the day it is usually ok, but right at first it can be a real pain for the match staff.

Next problem is if you have a "C' class shooter designs the match it will usually be beyond the skill level of most L.E. I AM NOT RUNNING DOWN L.E.HERE AT ALL!!! They have never really done anything like this, and you will find that the gun handling and accuracy are not up to the task of your course design. Ie. I have been involved in L.E. matches for over 7 years now, and most the guys that show up to shoot, don't know the zero on their rifles pat about 25 yard, or anything about trajectory, thier pistol handling reflects the level of traing they have or have not received, and shotgun skills are non existent ( loading, transitioning, select slug etc. ) Does this apply to all L.E. NO! There are many fine shooters, but this will be the default level, and this obsevation comes form 7 years of experience! Many of the skills we as "shooters" have are just not know in the L.E.world. These are skills we take for granted in course design, so it can be a big problem

Most clubs don't like to do large matches au gratis, so you need to charge an entry fee to cover your costs, but, L.E. doesn't pay that well, so trhe entry fee needs to be low for the individual officer to afford. It is hard to break even running a L.E. match, so I now have a question for Mr. Houck. How much will the NRA be taking from the entry fee? I have seen the NRA reps that are sent, expect hotel and food expenses from the match. Will that be the S.O.P. or are you guys going to do this on your own dime. What about props and targets that get destroyed durring the match, will the club eat this, or is the NRA going to help. Remember we are talking low entry fees just to get the guys out to shoot it. Since I have done some of these I would be interested in putting one on in Oklahoma, but I have to be able to sell it to my club and I need alot more info to do so. Kurt Miller

Edited March 6, 2008 by kurtm

[Carlos]

Thanks Larry and again, congratulations! You have answered my question completely (see below). I for one, am satisfied that this program is off to a great start & that everything that can be done to move these shoots in the right direction, will be done. I agree that this is not the time for anyone to get worked up over the current format. Its the future that matters here.

Guys, I've known Larry for years and to the extent it matters, he is one of "us" - meaning he volunteered to RUN the Juniors program for all of USPSA for years and he understands where we should be headed for the future. On top of that - the outstanding Summer Blast is completely HIS doing and its one of the best large shoots around as many of you know. His dedication to our sport is beyond criticism in my book. He's earned my trust and I think he deserves your trust as well; let's let him work at this for a few years and then see where it goes. Anyway, here are parts of what he has already stated:

.

Understand that I am coming into this with rules, content and program already set in place. This had to be done in order to hire someone into the position. For the record all three people involved with the program from here on out all shoot USPSA, IDPA, PPC, 3 gun and anything else you can toss a bullet toward a target. . . . I understand your frustration however we must start somewhere. . . . Now what can I change, not much for this year as we have 4 matches already planned. For 2009, that is a different story. . . . I hope that we can open the matches up so LE and civilian can shoot side by side. . . Everyone please keep in mind this program is less than 3 months old and the sky is the limit. . . . Great things are coming I promise you. I started the Summer Blast 8 years ago with 126 shooters, it has now grown to the largest Level III Tournament on the east coast with 320 registered already and the match is 5 months away.

Thanks again Larry and please let us know how we can help out.

Regards,

D.

[uscbigdawg]

Larry Houck....

What's up brotha. First, congratulations. Long way from running the Summer Blast. Mr. NRA!

First, will active/reserve/ARNG military be allowed to compete or is it strictly city, state and federal LE? After that, if there's anything that I can do to help, let me know. I'm sponsored and design products for a small company here in NC that does some tactical parts as well as breaching tools and this is the exact format that we're looking to market.

Hope all is well.

Rich

[SGDM]

The intent of these matches is to give the hard working LE and Military personnel a chance to compete in multi-gun competition.

You all have yer panties in a wad about being unable to compete in these matches. All you have to do is go to your local recruiter and raise your right hand! This concept is in it's infancy, so give it a chance to progress.

In the near future, there will be enough fun to go around for everyone. Until then, support your local LEO and Military.

If some of you are wondering why you are not invited, go back and read some of the things you have written on this subject.

[Mike P]

The intent of these matches is to give the hard working LE and Military personnel a chance to compete in multi-gun competition.

You all have yer panties in a wad about being unable to compete in these matches. All you have to do is go to your local recruiter and raise your right hand! This concept is in it's infancy, so give it a chance to progress.

In the near future, there will be enough fun to go around for everyone. Until then, support your local LEO and Military.

If some of you are wondering why you are not invited, go back and read some of the things you have written on this subject.

I have re-read the thread and must be missing the part where these matches will be open to military personnel.

Many have asked if that would be the case, and if so it'd be easy to get behind the effort, even to work and not shoot.

So, are these events open to at least active duty military?

Mike

[smokshwn]

Relax, ease up, we have all kinds of matches that we can attend and beat up on cops that show up lighten up francis

Larry,

Congrats, sounds like an awesome position with a lot of potential to bridge some gaps and most importantly progress the level of "skill" training LE receives in a positive environment. Good luck! Please let us know how we can help and where to sign up if the chance arises.

Take care, Craig

[sbmd]

"It is hard to break even running a L.E. match, so I now have a question for Mr. Houck. How much will the NRA be taking from the entry fee? I have seen the NRA reps that are sent, expect hotel and food expenses from the match."

Mr. Miller,

I will attempt to answer your question I have copied above....... ZERO! The NRA LE Activities division understands that this is not for profit nor is it intended to be but to benefit the officers attending the matches. Last year at the NPSC (PPC), a match of this style was conducted. Everyone who shot the side match stated this is the type of shooting that we need. The LE Activities division wants to help the officers. Trust me when I say I want to run it as much as possible to a budget, but I too know that the expenses will outway the intake and so does the NRA. However the NRA is committed to it as a tool to assist LE, no different than their LE instructor courses. All the prizes that will be going out to the officers are donated by various companies, we will not be purchasing any prizes.

Now lets look at corporate sending folks....yes for the first year we will be sending no more than three personnel to the matches. Our plan for the future is to allow local organizations the opportunity to run matches using the rules of the program and to receive NRA sanctioning if you will. Our down the road goal is to hold regional matches much like the area matches of USPSA. Then at the end of the year, host a nationals at a larger facility.

As for realistic.....once we pull out a timer and keep score realizm goes out the window. I would much rather use the term replicate. I can replicate obstacles, use of cover and tactical engagement. I can not make it realistic as no one would want to attend a match to shoot 10 - 12 rounds over a 5 to 6 stages. I was involved in a use of deadly force and it was one round in 2 seconds at 3 feet. Realistic yes....fun NO! Our intention on the stages is to replicate what a patrol officer may see. Handgun shots less than 12 yards and no rifle target past 100 yards, we believe this would be more acurate to what the patrol officer or tactical officer (less sniper) would encounter. There will even be small stories to go with stages to set the atmosphere.

We would hope that no props are eaten or destroyed during the course of the match. The match fee no different than a locally run IDPA or USPSA match charges a per use fee. The match would reimburse the local club or range with a per shooter fee. I would hope that amount would cover any replacement of props or such. Our goal is not to have the local club put out any money for hosting an event.

I hope this helps. As for our military folks....you bet you can compete...see below for those who can participate!

2.1 Categories

2.1.1 Full Time Sworn Law Enforcement: Regular full time sworn law enforcement officers of a regularly constituted law enforcement agency of a municipal, county, state, or federal government.

2.1.2 Full Time Certified Law Enforcement Firearm Instructor: Full time certified Law Enforcement Firearm Instructors employed by public law enforcement agencies, academies or private law enforcement agencies.

2.1.3 Full Time Private Law Enforcement Officer: Transit police, corrections officers, industrial police, and individuals working as licensed, armed private security professionals.

2.1.4 Reserve or Auxiliary Officers: Officers of a regularly organized reserve or auxiliary unit who perform the same duties as full time officers, have sworn arrest powers, and are authorized to be armed.

2.1.5 Retired Law Enforcement Officers: Officers who retire and receive retirement credentials from any of the above categories.

2.1.6 Armed Forces Personnel: Active duty and reserve personnel serving in the United States Armed Forces or National Guard.

2.1.7 Non-US Law Enforcement: Sworn law enforcement officers from other countries with proof of identity and position.

If you don't fit into one of these catagories....there are allot of security companies out there and I am not going to check everyone of them

[shootingchef]

Anything that promotes shooting IS good. I will be working the greenville match and I bet it's going to be a blast!

A lot of the LEOs that I know are not supported by their departments for this activity or any shooting activity, hopefully down the road, they can get some support(cost reimbursement) from their departments and call it trainging time.

[Scout454]

Larry,

You might want to talk to the guys from St. Charles Sportsman's Club in Waldorf, MD. The local PD has been running an IPSC style match for LEO's for at least 10 years and it has been very well received by LEO shooting teams from Maryland and Virginia. The match is built, staffed and run by local USPSA and IDPA shooters - who also shoot the match but are scored separately.

[kurtm]

NMr. Houck, those were the answers I was hoping for. Please e-mail me, maybe we can run this in conjunction with the Oklahoma SWAT challenge latter in the year. Cell # is 405-308-5292 Thanks Kurt.

[whiskey1]

I for one am very happy to see the NRA pursue these types of matches. I am a cop who happens to have shooting for a hobby. Most cops have other hobbies- golf, running marathons, chasing skirts, whatever... That may be unfortunate but ask yourself how may housebuilders do woodworking for a hobby. When most people get off they want to be distracted from their work life not reminded of it. I am odd I guess. Cops are probably a little better with their firearms than the average gun owner in the United States. USPSA members are much better than average, I think. It is that hobby thing. Thank goodness that cops usually shoot against criminals (who tend to be pretty poor) and not against people who practice as much as your average C-class USPSA shooter.

The NRA will attract officers who have never or would never shoot a regular match and some of them might adopt it as a hobby. The sport will grow and everyone will benefit. I have been told by various people at almost every match I have been to how they are happy to meet a cop who can actually shoot and tells me a story of some cop who came to the local club match and left in shame after being outshot. I submit that those types of stories while meant as compliments to me might do a lot to encourage cops to stay home.

How many USPSA members choose to make fun or remember a new shooter just because they happen to work in law enforcement when they would have taken someone from any other profession who came to a match for the first time under thier wing by offering encouragement or assistance? I think the NRA is trying to offer encouragement and assistance and I applaud them for it.

For those who want to compete in Law Enforcement matches- it is easy to join the club. All you have to do is raise your right hand, agree to do shift work with Tuesday and Wednesday off, for lower middle class income and you are in. It is actually a lot of fun and I for one encourage anyone with a clean background and sense of humor to give it a try.

[jobob]

I was a shooter before I was in law enforcement. Shooting was my hobby, but it kinda went away because of the job. Working nearly every weekend put a crimp in my personal life. Also, although I remained competent, my shooting skill slowly lessened over the years due to lack of practice. I finally quit trying to get cops out to matches. I just wasn't going to happen. Now that I'm retired, I have my weekends back and I'm having a ball going to as many matches as I can. Life is good!

Will these NRA matches be open to retired law enforcement?

[sbmd]

I was a shooter before I was in law enforcement. Shooting was my hobby, but it kinda went away because of the job. Working nearly every weekend put a crimp in my personal life. Also, although I remained competent, my shooting skill slowly lessened over the years due to lack of practice. I finally quit trying to get cops out to matches. I just wasn't going to happen. Now that I'm retired, I have my weekends back and I'm having a ball going to as many matches as I can. Life is good!

Will these NRA matches be open to retired law enforcement?

You bet they are!

2.1.5 Retired Law Enforcement Officers: Officers who retire and receive retirement credentials from any of the above categories.

[Jim Norman]

but ask yourself how may housebuilders do woodworking for a hobby. When most people get off they want to be distracted from their work life not reminded of it.

This MAY be true, but then again, a homebuilder (read carpenter) actually practices with his tools all day every day.

Cops are probably a little better with their firearms than the average gun owner in the United States. USPSA members are much better than average, I think. It is that hobby thing. Thank goodness that cops usually shoot against criminals (who tend to be pretty poor) and not against people who practice as much as your average C-class USPSA shooter.

I agree that a PO should hopefully NEVER have to fall back to his gun and shoot someone, HOWEVER, since he is the visible armed guardian of society, he should have a very high level of proficiency, not just better than the "average American gun-owner"

How many USPSA members choose to make fun or remember a new shooter just because they happen to work in law enforcement when they would have taken someone from any other profession who came to a match for the first time under their wing by offering encouragement or assistance?

We have more than a few LEO that we shoot with. Those that decide to take up this sport find their skills greatly improved, the ONLY ones we joke about are the ones that come on like Rambo, but have no skill level or safety level to back it up, and then only if they area NOT present. AND even then if they decide to come back and shoot we will bend over backwards to work with them. Not to teach tactics, but rather to teach gun handling and competitive shooting.

Others may differ in their opinon, but the above is mine.

Jim

[MKuhn]

Question;

I am the chiefs boss (Mayor) and have a gold shield, am I eligible?

Mell

[bigbrowndog]

HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mel, you're the Mayor,............Now????????

trapr

[Chris Conley]

Question;

I am the chiefs boss (Mayor) and have a gold shield, am I eligible?

Mell

Holy smokes Mell a mayor???? There's just something wierd about that.....

Looking forward to seeing you again soon.

Chris C.

[sbmd]

Question;

I am the chiefs boss (Mayor) and have a gold shield, am I eligible?

Mell

Mell,

As mayor, can you arrest someone?

[Larry White]

Question;

I am the chiefs boss (Mayor) and have a gold shield, am I eligible?

Mell

Damn, I know the mayor, wonder if that gets me free coffee.----------------Larry