justicentyme Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 For the last three years or so that I have been shooting IDPA I have only shot at club level matches. This year I plan on shooting some regional and state matches. In reference to an upcoming match the sponsors said that 'So and So' (A well know national shooter) would be running the scale and chronograph. Is it standard practice to chronograph everyone's ammo that shoots in a state or regional IDPA match? I just came back from my range after checking some new loads for an older 4" 625 -3 that I bought last fall so I am comfortable that my ammo is above the 165 PF but I was wondering if everyone got checked , random checks, or just a load that is obviously weak. Thanks James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Every match I have seen a chronograph, everybody has been checked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Yep and sometimes they pull a bullet to weigh it as well. FWIW when they chrono your loads they should also make sure to tilt the gun upwards before shooting it.... it DOES matter. My chrono tests showed about a 25 ft/sec average increase in speed just by tilting the gun upwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Why should that be a concern for someone running the chrono when the gun is normally pointed down in the holster prior to the first shot. If I were running the chrono and you asked that question, you probably wouldn't like my answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brazos SC Shooter Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 The last major I shot in IDPA was a random draw on the chrono. A person would walk around and decide and individual, or a squad was going to get chrono'd. In USPSA it done at every major match. I have also seen where they just ask for your bullet weight in IDPA vs. pulling it and weighing it. As far as the tilt it up. I know that if you don't make PF they will let you try that. If you work your loads up correctly you should not have to worry about being that close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nwb01 Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 I shot 4 major IDPA matches last year with one being the Nationals. Only one time there was a random draw for chrono and this wasn't even at the nationals but a state match! I believe they had a problem with the chrono at Nationals. If you making legal PF, there is nothing to worry about. I have never seen a scale at an IDPA major or club match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg K Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 I have never seen a scale at an IDPA major or club match. I have been weighed and I believe you will start to see more doing it. The scale caught several at the last Nationals in Little Rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Nesbitt Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Page 28 of the IDPA rule book under Official Chronograph Procedure: Prior to each shot, the muzzle of the gun should be elevated to move the powder charge to the rear of the case, thus giving the competitor every chance to achieve maximum velocity. Every match that I have attended where the chrono was used everybody got chronoed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revchuck Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 The last IDPA major matches I shot (OK state '07 and LA state '05) I was chronoed, but no weighed. At the LA state match, the chrono was incorporated into one of the stages - you shot the stage, safed the still-loaded gun and handed it to the chrono guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sinko Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Over the last few years I have competed in at least a half dozen sanctioned matches, mostly "state" and "regional" championships. At most of these matches I have never seen a chronograph. A few times I have seen ammo pulled (by that I mean taken from the competitor and not disassembled and weighed) but I have no reason to believe that it was ever shot over any chronograph. From my own experiences, I see widespread abuse in ESR. In fact, one ESR competitor at a sanctioned match which allegedly had a chronograph had admitted to me during the match that his loads did not make Power Factor. He was never called on it. As I see it, this can mean one of only two things: Either the chronograph is never used or nobody wants to give the FTDR to those who do not make chrono. And no chrono at the Nationals? Hmmmm... All my major matches this year will be USPSA. I am looking forward to my meeting with the chronograph. Dave Sinko Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Brass Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 In case you are wondering, one of the reasons you don't see the chrono at major IDPA matches is that it requires more manpower, range space and time to complete the match. Ideally, all IDPA sanctioned matches would require the chrono, but today it is not required. Running a sanctioned match is a real job and I certainly understand why MD's tend to shy away from it. There are 1001 things to do in order to pull off a sanctioned match and adding one more thing, especially one that requires the effort associated with the chrono, can be too much. I think most MD's would rather add an extra stage if they have the manpower, range space and time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg K Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 From my own experiences, I see widespread abuse in ESR. And no chrono at the Nationals? Hmmmm... All my major matches this year will be USPSA. I am looking forward to my meeting with the chronograph. Dave Sinko I was looking forward to the chrono at last years IDPA Nationals. I was shooting ESR. I shot 185PF loads the last few months before and at the Nationals. I was ready to blow the screens off the chrono so naturaly they didn't use the chrono since I was so well prepared. I wanted to know that I was good to go if there was a foot of snow on the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickB Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Our club has hosted a sanctioned match every year since '02, and we've weighed and chrono'd only once. The IDPA chrono procedure, requiring the ammo to be run through the longest barrel legal for a given division, requires the staff to provide at least three or four guns, through which to shoot others' handloads, and if you don't have a .357 SIG, or 9x23 handy, that guy gets a pass? Also, since there are no official specs for the scale, how does anyone know if the scale used for weighing is accurate? And, at least for our purposes, there was a lot of disagreement about how to enforce the weight rule. If the limit is "41 ounces", does that mean 41.01 is over? Or, is anything less than 42.00 OK? We ended-up taping over the .00 part of the readout, and as long as the whole number was OK, the gun was considered legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DancesWithSquirrels Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 The IDPA chrono procedure does seem to put an unnecessary burden on the match directors. It seems downright unreasonable for them to expect the match director to provide guns with the maximum barrel length for the division in all possible calibers for that division. That is a lot of guns just to be able to give someone who has a shorter barreled gun a chance to make power factor if they can't do it with their own gun. It seems that the simplest answer would be that if you can't make power factor in your gun then you can't make power factor. Also I am not sure I would want to be the provider of a test gun for someone else's handloads. It is one thing for someone to risk their own gun on their reloads. But who would want to make a gun available for testing reloads by a number of different people? DWS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmitchl Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 The last IDPA match I shot that was chronoed the procedure was to finish shooting a stage, load a fresh mag and walk over to the chrono table. I was shooting .40 loaded with AA2 and 180 grain bullets and needed to make 694 fps for PF. My first round over the chrono was around 600 fps and suddenly I went from being entirely confident to entirely concerned. The next two were in the 740 range so I passed. What I learned later was AA2 drops in velocity as the temp increases. The hot barrel had heated the round in the chamber enough to affect the velocity. So you need to be aware of the how your powder performs under different conditions when you go to the chrono table. The requirement to chrono the ammo from the longest barrel legal for that division only comes in play if the shooter's gun fails to make PF which is a situation I've never witnessed. Would seem to me it should be the shooter's responsibility to provide the alternative gun. I know with what I shoot I get different results between stock Glock barrels, Jarvis barrels, and 5" 1911 barrels with the same load. Likewise everytime I change bullet suppliers I have to chrono my load. So if the shooter provides the alternative gun there's no opportunity to complain that the alternative gun has a shot out barrel or shot the bullets poorly, etc. and caused his load to fail. Plus the match staff does not have to come up with someone willing to shoot someone else handloads in their gun. I've never had a bullet pulled and weighed although there is usually a bullet puller available at the chrono stage. WRT gun weights, I've had to weigh at a few matches. I was always concerned about the accuracy of the scale used at the match. I weigh my guns if there is any doubt before I go to a match. I set the scale readout to grams instead of ozs and convert the grams back to ozs to get more significant digits in the result. I've checked my scale with test weights but am not always confident the match scale has the same level of accuracy or repeatability. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickB Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 The IDPA chrono procedure does seem to put an unnecessary burden on the match directors. It seems downright unreasonable for them to expect the match director to provide guns with the maximum barrel length for the division in all possible calibers for that division. That is a lot of guns just to be able to give someone who has a shorter barreled gun a chance to make power factor if they can't do it with their own gun. It seems that the simplest answer would be that if you can't make power factor in your gun then you can't make power factor.Also I am not sure I would want to be the provider of a test gun for someone else's handloads. It is one thing for someone to risk their own gun on their reloads. But who would want to make a gun available for testing reloads by a number of different people? DWS I assume the chrono procedure follows from the principle of "using full-power ammo" in IDPA. You can't very well expect a guy to load his 4" gun, which is already at a competitive disadvantage to a 5" gun, with hotter ammo so as to make power factor? Realistically, everyone shoots a 5" gun and loads down to 165,000, but they don't want the guy who actually is shooting a short, lightweight carry gun to be at an even further disadvantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 I've shot exactly one IDPA match - a State match. Everyone went to the chrono. I do not recall a scale but there might have been one. I shot SSR so perhaps they saw no need to weigh it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueridge Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 The IDPA chrono procedure does seem to put an unnecessary burden on the match directors. It seems downright unreasonable for them to expect the match director to provide guns with the maximum barrel length for the division in all possible calibers for that division. That is a lot of guns just to be able to give someone who has a shorter barreled gun a chance to make power factor if they can't do it with their own gun. It seems that the simplest answer would be that if you can't make power factor in your gun then you can't make power factor.Also I am not sure I would want to be the provider of a test gun for someone else's handloads. It is one thing for someone to risk their own gun on their reloads. But who would want to make a gun available for testing reloads by a number of different people? DWS I assume the chrono procedure follows from the principle of "using full-power ammo" in IDPA. You can't very well expect a guy to load his 4" gun, which is already at a competitive disadvantage to a 5" gun, with hotter ammo so as to make power factor? Realistically, everyone shoots a 5" gun and loads down to 165,000, but they don't want the guy who actually is shooting a short, lightweight carry gun to be at an even further disadvantage. Given that there are several ways to make power factor, a person with a short barreled firearm would not necessarily be at a disadvantage. I use a Ruger Alaskan (2 1/2" barrel) in IDPA and USPSA, and when I was last at the chrono at a match my PF was 185. Now you can use a light bullet that moves fast (likely getting less felt recoil) or a heavier bullet that moves a bit slower (likely getting more felt recoil). The 185PF was not my intent, as I was working for 170PF apporximately. I found that I had seated the bullets a little too deep, leading to the higher PF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 The requirement to chrono the ammo from the longest barrel legal for that division only comes in play if the shooter's gun fails to make PF which is a situation I've never witnessed. I was saved by the range gun at a match last year. Turned out that my Colt ammo did not make PF in my Sig-Sauer. It did in the chrono man's Colt, so I got through the match. The rule provision notwithstanding, I felt I had slipped up and bumped the load for use in the Sig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DancesWithSquirrels Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 I can understand the mindset that wants to give everyone every opportunity to compete and do so on a level playing field. It just seems that in order to provide everyone with that same opportunity the match director potentially has to have a lot of test guns available. It would not seem fair if someone shooting a shorter barreled .45 ACP in CDP was able to make power factor by virtue of shooting their ammo through a match test gun while someone that came with a shorter barrelled .44 special could not do so because the match director did not have a test gun in .44 special. If everyone had to make power factor in the gun they brought then the match director doesn't have to worry about providing a bunch of test guns. If someone chooses to use a shorter barrelled gun they should be aware of the tradeoffs they are making and work up their loads accordingly. These power factors do not require unmanageable recoil even in shorter barrels. DWS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 Why should that be a concern for someone running the chrono when the gun is normally pointed down in the holster prior to the first shot. If I were running the chrono and you asked that question, you probably wouldn't like my answer. Read the rule book- I didn't write it but it's there and it does make a difference that was my only point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sinko Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 Some are saying here that using a chrono is "just too inconvenient." If that's the case, then why bother to enforce the fit of the gun in the box? Which rules will we choose to enforce today and which rules will we choose to NOT enforce today? The slope is getting very slippery. Dave Sinko Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nwb01 Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 (edited) Some are saying here that using a chrono is "just too inconvenient." If that's the case, then why bother to enforce the fit of the gun in the box? Which rules will we choose to enforce today and which rules will we choose to NOT enforce today? The slope is getting very slippery.Dave Sinko I have been shooting IDPA for a few years now and there are rules that I have seen not enforced from one day to the next. As a matter of fact, I have seen this happen from stage to stage in a major match !! Not to bash IDPA because I really do see alot of good things about it. However, there are still too many rules that are not clearly defined in the rule book and are subjective to the SO/MD. I think every major match should have a chrono, scale and box and that every competitor should be subject the the inspection. The rules are in the book for a reason !!! Out of the 5 majors I have shot I have NEVER been through the chrono or a scale and have only seen the box once ! Where's the rock salt ?? Edited March 1, 2008 by nwb01 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdmoore Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 I guess someones reloads could damage a bbl/gun, but you sure don't see much of that at matches. I'd cover that by comping the bbl out of the match revenue if it should happen. The odd .44mag out of a 2" bbl? Unless it looks like a mouse fart loading, I'd give it a pass. Call it MD discretion, if the load looks as if it would easily make PF out of a full size bbl then make a judgement call and move on ... Or, you could just provide 5" bbl'd guns in 9mm, 40 and .45, a 4" bbl revolver in 38spl. Should cover 75% of the shooters, maybe more. Then include a disclaimer in the match announcement that if any shooter of other calibers want to have the insurance of having a full size gun to test a load out of, they need to bring one themselves. Maybe someone bored and wanting to create a shortcut could investigate whether a falling popper could truly be calibrated to 125 pf? I doubt this would work as plates likely react differently to 230 gn @125pf vs 115gn (does anyone really shoot .45 that slow? lol). anyways, maybe "calibrate" the plate to 125, and any gun failing to drop the steel gets pulled for a proper calibration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 And just what is wrong with a 230 gr bullet screaming along at 550 fps? Bottom line is if you have to cheat, by using a load that does not make PF, to win a $10 trophy then you have some serious personal problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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