What makes a $2,000 pistol better?

[el pres]

Hey I'm not going to pretend that I know anyone or anything about the AZ shooting scene but at a match down there

This is what I heard from a "very good" local shooter about TGO and the infamous Tuesdat Night Steel match they have.

Refering to gun or shooter, {Quote}",man we come out with our bigstick open guns and that guy still beats all of us

with a single stack, he just wont miss!!"!

post 201.5

[boo radley]

I guess at some level the part that disturbs me a tad, is *some* Glock shooters won't reflect and consider the issue might be with *them*, and that charging S_I pistols can't provide a quantifiable advantage has a lot less to do with logic and a lot more to do with personality, taste and spending habits.

It's like taking a vacation, and having a co-worker point out that HE saved HIS vacation days and got paid for them, or went to XYZ place, instead, and saved $$$, or worked during his vacation, and was paid time & 1/2, or....

The bottom line is that you aren't going to handle and shoot a 2011, if you're a Glock shooter (and I *am* one, though not necessarily a good one), and not think -- 'Wow, nice gun!' So there's obviously some difference, and why be amazed or annoyed that most folks are willing to pay for that difference?

"Put the difference in ammo and/or a class, and see how much better shooter you become." Well, play this game? sport? for a couple years, and you'll have spent enough in components, Dillon press, travel, match fees, lessons, gear, more gear, different gear, to make any initial price difference between a G35 Ltd rig, and STI rig, trivial. In fact, if you want to really drag out the spotlight, the costs of this game are pretty horrifying, given the 'reward,' which is mostly self-indulgent -- it's fun to shoot, and it's more fun to shoot matches. Hard to justify ANY of this, much less worry about G24 vs. SVI custom 6".

And finally -- if you *are* a shooter, with whatever platform, you're at least putting fire though steel, and using the damn gun often, and if that can't justify something nice....Think how many dickheads are out there fondling once-fired safe-queens with greedy fingers, saying things like, "Oh, I wouldn't trust my life to anything BUT Ed Brown," etc. Bah.

[bgary]

Late to the thread - sorry! <g>

I have the same thought process with my shooting gear as I did with my moto-x bike.

+1

I suck with a pistol, but.. in the sport I'm actually "good" at (sailboat racing), I'd draw a parallel. When I was racing seriously, one of the mantras was "no excuse to lose". I wanted to be absolutely positive that, when I went out on the water for that big race, there was no one out there who had practiced harder, prepared better, had better equipment, or anything else. Sure, I could have "gone on a budget" and gotten the "good enough" equipment, but... then when it failed, or didn't do what I needed it to do at a critical moment, I will have sabotaged my own chances of winning. By *eliminating* that possibility, the equation of whether I won or not came down to only ONE variable ... me. And that one variable, I am in complete control of.

Picking a gun is the same question, IMHO. I want to have "the best I can get", because... anything else is going to *limit* my chances of success. I may never compete to *its* full potential... but, at the same time, it will never be the reason that I didn't reach *my* potential.

*that's* the value of a $2000 custom gun, to *me*. It has nothing to do with who made it... it has only to do with whether it helps, or gets in the way of, my ability to "compete". That "right for you" gun may be a custom S_I, or it may be a Glock, or a revolver.... whatever. The point is, pick one that doesn't give you any excuse to lose.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying someone can "buy a game"... a good gun will not *help* you win... but the wrong gun *can* impede you. In sailboat racing, there's an analogy: "a race is like an escalator..." Everyone starts on the same step at the bottom, and as the escalator takes everyone up, every time you have a "breakdown" (a bad decision, a missed opportunity, flawed execution at a key moment, an equipment failure, etc.) you take a step backwards. The winner is the first one off at the top... by definition, the one with the fewest "breakdowns". Mapping that to our game... do you want a gun that, by its very nature, causes you to move down the results listing? Not me.

We mostly agree that time is lost in USPSA not in the shooting, but rather in the movement. That fancy ass gun with the SightTracker helps you move? Really? Your slide lightening lets you get in position smoother? Do tell.

You're 100% right. No question about it. *BUT*... you'll waste a lot of time clearing malfs, if your gun doesn't run reliably. you'll waste a lot of time adjusting your grip on the clock, if the grip angle or other ergonomic factors make you adjust for *them* during the draw. You'll waste a lot of time, while the clock is running, if mags don't drop free. Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...

It is open division panties, not class. Think about it. It's a subtle...but important...distinction.

Lightened and ported? <LOL>

B

Edited January 31, 2008 by bgary

[EricW]

Periodically, I check in on this thread, get pissed off, and close the forum tab and wonder what I ever saw in IPSC shooting to begin with. It's as though $2K was this insurmountable sum of money that's creating a mile tall roadblock.

Bullshit. Pure bullshit.

It's the same bullshit about match fees, USPSA dues, yadda yadda yadda. If you're going to compete, SERIOUSLY COMPETE, in ANY sport, you're going to be shelling out the dough until (if ever) you're good enough to attract sponsors. Get over it.

Every so often, I talk to competitors in other sports about the costs of USPSA and they just roll their eyes and laugh like hell at the bitching that goes on here. It's time for more than a few people on the internet to do a serious reality check. See what it costs to be a triathlete some time. Races are run by volunteers. There are very few consumables that the races actually shell out of pocket for. A weekend race was $80 last time I checked. My co-worker is going to do a short distance Ironman in Hawaii. We're talking no more than a 2 hour race for the slowpokes. 500 bones to get in and the SOB is sold out MONTHS in advance.

Then there are the incremental costs for an athlete: Gym bills are near $100/mo. Shoe bills are at least $200/mo. Throw in a couple $500 wetsuits here and there, coaching bills, a $5000 bike and the maintenance to go with it.

Really want to spend money? Race something with an engine in it. Don't take it from me. Go to any race track & don't forget to bring your green visor and adding machine.

If you want to race, you're going to pay. Just deal with it. Learn to manage your finances so it's not a burden on you or your family. If you can't, don't race. Just shut up and don't race. Racing is what it is. It will never be easy; it will never be cheap. When I was shooting hard, there were simply things I did without to afford it. I drove an old car. I didn't have TV. I packed a lunch. I found a way to make it work. And so can you.

This whole $2000 gun business is just so much petty jealousy. I chose to afford the gun I wanted to shoot. You chose yours. Don't like it? Tough. If your Glock is so spectacular, load up and kick ass with it, but quit your whining already about how "stupid" I am to shoot a "$2000 gun." I'll bet your rack-grade Glocky-poo won't seem like such a bargain when course designers wise up, and push partial targets and upper A/B's out to the back berms. 32 rounds of arms-length hoseramas are not the historical norm for pistol competitions. And it's a lot easier to succeed on bitcheroo targets with a 2lb trigger on a race gun than it is with a Glock. Don't preach to me about it. I've done both. I know what *I* want to shoot for fun with a very limited practice schedule.

We icky, nasty, rotten, gaming racegun shooters made our choices. You made yours. Shut your pie hole and race.

[There, I feel much better now. ]

Edited January 31, 2008 by EricW

[sfinney]

[Rocket35]

Amen Eric!

[GentlemanJim]

OH BABY

Eric just lays it out there as it is..this here is THE answer on this thread!!!

BTW I had $59,000 in the engine in my race boat...and could have lost it all at any moment racing it!!

And 2k for a REAL racegun (open)...is dirt cheap!...and pretty darn cheap for a limited.

JMHO

Jim

[Neomet]

AND WE HAVE A WINNER AT #179!!

[Seth]

Tell Rolex, Bentley, Farr Designs, Gucci, and Tiffany's that cheap, massed produced junk is equivalent and that quality doesn't matter.

Tell me that you can't tell the difference between a hand made piece of furniture and a fresh off the boat far east knock off.

Tell me that you wouldn't RATHER own a hand crafted, handbuilt race gun than a moulded plastic chunk of junk.

This is racing, folks. EVERY little bit counts. I've never competed in any sport where the true MASTERS weren't separated by the details. Can YOU tell the difference in your performance by virtue of having a finely tuned firearm? I bet you can... because you'll rise to the occasion to drive that gun harder.

Sevigny is PAID to run a Glock.

Edited February 1, 2008 by Sethmark

[Odie]

I've held off this thread for a while now, so I'll put this in. I'm hearing all this theoretical "all things being equal", and "start 2 people at the same level", "equal practice time", and several other academic analogies. Whatever, this isn't theory. The reality is some people work harder than others and those people win. I don't care if they shoot a Glock or S_I, or whatever whim they bought this week. Don't put in the work and see what happens. Practice time limited, range too far to drive? Too bad. Pocketbook limited? Sorry. Spent $900 and your scores didn't change? Hate it for ya. Spent $5000 and your scores didn't change? Too bad for you. What makes a $2000 gun? The driver. I don't care about statistics of who uses what gun, dominant gun, most popular gun, whatever. The TOP people in this game put in the WORK. If it wins, it's priceless. If it loses, it ain't worth zilch, and I don't mean in the economical sense either. I'm not going to post what I shoot, because it doesn't matter. And I personally look forward to the day course designers "wise up" and put upper a/b's at 35 yards. Then we'll all find out who burns the rounds, and does their dryfire, instead of who made, in someone else's opinion, a "stupid" gun choice, or bought a "lesser" gun. So, spend whatever you want, and think about "theories", and who shoots what. Don't do the work, for whatever the reason. The people that put in the work will be waiting for you.

[Seth]

I actually disagree with you, Odie. I suck at racing guns, but I don't suck at racing some other things. When you get two guys of equal commitment together on the same course, with the same skill set, and the same preparation, it becomes an equipment race too. Just because I can't buy a game, doesn't mean that the GMs can't get a fractional improvement... and the fractions add up.

[Odie]

You are completely entitled to disagree. Pursue what you will, how you will.

[GentlemanJim]

OH YEAH!...OH YEAH?? You talkin to ME???

Well MY three legged Basset Hound can kick your Chahuahuas Butt!!!

Giggle

Jim

[Odie]

Be careful, my Basset has ALL her legs.

Edit- SHORT LEGGED DOGS RULE!

Edited February 1, 2008 by Odie

[Jake Di Vita]

Everyone always says "same skill level, and equipment matters...blah blah blah."

Bottom line is, there are no 2 shooters and never will be 2 shooters with exactly equal skill level. There may be some who are damn close (although may not be on match day), but even then....equipment (as long as it is working) has a lesser impact on your score than if the sun is out or not or the temperature and humidity.

[el pres]

Huh? #179

[XD Niner]

So Eric, how do you really feel about this issue?

Truthfully, I agree with Eric. The great thing about this sport is that you can shoot in any Division you want. Production is typically the least expensive followed by L-10 and SS. If you don't want to spend what you may consider a lot of money, you can have a rip roarin' great time on a budget. I did for close to three years and enjoyed every match.

YMMV and that's the point. To each, his or her own.

[EricW]

So Eric, how do you really feel about this issue?

Gee and I really haven't begun to express myself on the issue.

I can probably speak for about 2/3 of Limited shooters when I say:

USPSA is about racing guns. It has been forever. And since Jesus was a boy and Al Gore invented The Internet©, there has been a contingent of whiners implying that shooting a race gun is cheating. This thread is just the latest genesis of the same horseshit. I wonder if the same people think everyone in NASCAR is a cheater. They have rules. We have rules. We're playing within the rules. We're shooting guns that fit a factory configuration and dinking with the guts until we think we have a combo that works best for us.

It's time for a bunch of whiny, wise-asses to quit trying to beat people on the internet with trash-talk and do it at a match. The whole point of USPSA is RESULTS, not bullshit hypotheses.

I bought a gun that I like and that I can afford. Don't like it? Come beat my ass at a match with your Norinco or whatever bargain-basement heater is the hot-ticket now. I've been by Glock shooters constantly. No biggie. Good for them. I'll keep shooting my S_I and having fun doing it. The S_I platform isn't the most popular gun in Limited and Open because it sucks. I enjoy it, it fits my hand, and suits my temperament.

Take the class-warfare agenda to the Gay Communist Gun Club. It'll receive a warm welcome there.

Yours Truly,

Eric

[Flexmoney]

Periodically, I check in on this thread, get pissed off, and close the forum tab and wonder what I ever saw in IPSC shooting to begin with. It's as though $2K was this insurmountable sum of money that's creating a mile tall roadblock.

Bullshit. Pure bullshit.

It's the same bullshit about match fees, USPSA dues, yadda yadda yadda. If you're going to compete, SERIOUSLY COMPETE, in ANY sport, you're going to be shelling out the dough until (if ever) you're good enough to attract sponsors. Get over it.

Every so often, I talk to competitors in other sports about the costs of USPSA and they just roll their eyes and laugh like hell at the bitching that goes on here. It's time for more than a few people on the internet to do a serious reality check. See what it costs to be a triathlete some time. Races are run by volunteers. There are very few consumables that the races actually shell out of pocket for. A weekend race was $80 last time I checked. My co-worker is going to do a short distance Ironman in Hawaii. We're talking no more than a 2 hour race for the slowpokes. 500 bones to get in and the SOB is sold out MONTHS in advance.

Then there are the incremental costs for an athlete: Gym bills are near $100/mo. Shoe bills are at least $200/mo. Throw in a couple $500 wetsuits here and there, coaching bills, a $5000 bike and the maintenance to go with it.

Really want to spend money? Race something with an engine in it. Don't take it from me. Go to any race track & don't forget to bring your green visor and adding machine.

If you want to race, you're going to pay. Just deal with it. Learn to manage your finances so it's not a burden on you or your family. If you can't, don't race. Just shut up and don't race. Racing is what it is. It will never be easy; it will never be cheap. When I was shooting hard, there were simply things I did without to afford it. I drove an old car. I didn't have TV. I packed a lunch. I found a way to make it work. And so can you.

This whole $2000 gun business is just so much petty jealousy. I chose to afford the gun I wanted to shoot. You chose yours. Don't like it? Tough. If your Glock is so spectacular, load up and kick ass with it, but quit your whining already about how "stupid" I am to shoot a "$2000 gun." I'll bet your rack-grade Glocky-poo won't seem like such a bargain when course designers wise up, and push partial targets and upper A/B's out to the back berms. 32 rounds of arms-length hoseramas are not the historical norm for pistol competitions. And it's a lot easier to succeed on bitcheroo targets with a 2lb trigger on a race gun than it is with a Glock. Don't preach to me about it. I've done both. I know what *I* want to shoot for fun with a very limited practice schedule.

We icky, nasty, rotten, gaming racegun shooters made our choices. You made yours. Shut your pie hole and race.

[There, I feel much better now. ]

Eric,

You can be a big round a_-hole sometimes. (my turn to do the same )

Talk about whining...you throw the biggest fits I have seen. Time and time again you go off the handle. It's usually entertaining...

WTF does triathlon racing have to do with the (new competitor) that asked the question that started this thread?

'Hey...you enjoy shooting...well come on in...bring your fat check book or sell your car...gear starts at two grand, goes up from there, and you haven't even fired a shot yet.'

You know, I can get that a Glock gives you slide bite. The guy asked what you got for a $1000 custom Glock. If you can't figure out how to use the extra $500-600 to tune up a Glock so it doesn't bite you...maybe you ought to take up finger painting.

1911 slides have been biting people for decades. Guess what, some jean-yus stuck a beaver-tail on them. What a concept.

None of that suits you...how about a $400 dollar M&P...it already has a nice beaver-tail on it. Grip angle is good to go for some. Triggers, hell...they have only been out a year and the triggers are already pretty good. XD...my buddy's XD has a better trigger than his custom Open gun (1911 based)...

But, no...by all means...lets continue to spew the "gotta have a race gun to compete in IPSC" line of BS. Who is going to run the timer while you shoot alone...because you've scared all but the rich kids off?

When I shoot with the upper level shooter...guess what...there is very little talk about gear. Any blurbs you do hear can usually be attributed to salesmanship in support of their sponsors. What does the talk consist of your might ask?? The answer is...execution of the tasks at hand.

You bring up those 35y head shots. Did you miss my post from earlier? post #121

How about this. Grab your Limited STI and you and I can shoot plates racks at 35y. Surrender, Virginia, 9 seconds (Bianchi style). Lets shoot 200. Winner...gets the losers gun. Is that fair, since standing still at 35y ought to be your game? (you called the test...just calling you out on it...even though it's not representative of a typical USPSA match...which is what this thread is about)

While I'm throwing around the "bullshit"...I might as well call Chuck out too. No malice Chuck, but you said you'd bet on shooters of equal skill. I'd have to suppose that you and I would be considered pretty close? (You've probably won more than me...and I haven't shot Limited in a few years.) How about it? 5 Majors in Limited. The best placement at each wins the other guy's gun that he shot in the match that day? (Let's see...Area 5, Area 8, Indy,...?) Let me know. I gotta win Eric's gun first so I can sell it to fund the shooting. I am all out of 40 bullets and brass. To switch up to shoot 40 for the year would cost me...oh...about the price of an STI

[Seth]

I like Eric.

[Neomet]

I'll wager I can lose to both of you with either my relatively expensive CZ or my not so expensive XD!

I kinda thought Eric's point was just shoot what you want and don't look down on somene with a Glock or with a 2K gun. Then again I could be mistaken.......

Good point about the major thread drift from the origional poster's question. As a major contributor to the drift I'll confess my sins now, throw out a mea culpa, and exit the thread.

[GentlemanJim]

Hopefully the NEW guy wont take us TOO seriously

And our pissin contests are civil and humorous

Jim

[Flexmoney]

Jim, I PM'ed Cy with that very message (pages and pages ago). I warned him to take all this with a grain of salt. he was cool with it.

[EricW]

You know what Kyle? I don't see a bunch of S_I shooters pitching bitches on this forum over the Glock shooters "cheating" because they're winning with cheap guns. But I see this shit constantly with Glock (or whatever) shooters pissing and moaning over the "cheater" racegunners.

Can you beat me with your Glock? You bet your ass you can. I have pretty much given up USPSA shooting and garbage like this thread is why. Nobody can just show up and shoot anymore. It's bitch about this. Bitch about that. The shooting match is a side show to the pissing match. It's totally turned me off to the sport. I doubt I'll ever shoot a USPSA/IPSC match again. I just thought I'd like you to know why. But you don't want to know why, you just want to incriminate me along with all the other "money" shooters.

I shoot an "expensive" gun. So the f*#k what? What do YOU care? Just beat my ass with your Glock, wave the scoresheet around, pound your chest like a gorilla on meth, and go home. See how easy that is? Nobody had to discuss equipment. All you had to do was demonstrate results. People like me are weekend warriors. We don't practice much at all. We just want to go shoot a nice gun that's easy to operate and blow off some steam on the weekend. We have good jobs. We can afford our tools with little hardship. We are S_I's biggest customers. We don't need the "buying a G-card" garbage. And sweet Jesus, the Anti-Racegun Moonies have dished it out for eight damned pages, I just figured it was time for you to take it for two blessed posts.

And you're right. The equipment discussions evaporate at the upper echelons...because they've all got gear that runs. After that, it's technique. I'm not arguing that point at all. I and a lot of others prefer to simply buy the best equipment out of the chute and never worry about it again.

Why?

All we want to do is shoot and have fun. I/we didn't start this class warfare crap, someone else did. We just bought guns that we liked. Someone else attached emotion and motive to it. I've moved on from USPSA/IPSC and 3-Gun. This thread (and crap like it) is one of the biggest reasons why I now shoot clays or birds when I shoot at all.

And why did I bring up Triathlon? Gee, maybe it was to put financial perspective on what other middle-class-income persons are expending on their competitive sports. There's a hell of a lot more triathletes that there are USPSA shooters, so it's not like I grabbed some obscure sport from the hinterlands and used that as a comparable reference. What it boils down is that if you're going to compete seriously in any sport, you're going to need to budget at least $500/mo to compete on local and regional level. If that's not in your budget, then you need to fix your budget. The sport does not need to fix itself to accommodate you.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: the internet vitriol is clearly and unmistakably distilling down into how people interact with one another on a local level. I've seen it and experienced firsthand. And it's totally unacceptable to me. Need a punching bag? Then *buy* a punching bag. This garbage is one of the things that has just made USPSA so un-fun, I can't even bring myself to think of going to a match again.

I don't think that I'm alone in this.

Edited February 1, 2008 by EricW

[Cy Soto]

Hopefully the NEW guy wont take us TOO seriously

And our pissin contests are civil and humorous

Jim

My wife prefers to refer to this thread as an “entertaining debacle”. I can’t do less than agree with her; but then again I always do (this man knows his place ).