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What makes a $2,000 pistol better?


Cy Soto

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So, Ron, am I reading this right? You felt the STI was easier than the glock to learn with because it fit you better. But now that you have advanced to a higher level of shooting, you don't mind shooting a Glock instead. The platform makes less of an impact.
Yes, that is correct. I still prefer the 2011 based guns, but I can have just as much fun shooting the Glock.

Edited: Oh man...why didn't some of you guys slap me along side the head for being a ... you know.

Edited by Ron Ankeny
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Man, can you all dance! Let me toss this out there: in Limited/L-10/or Open Divisions, just who is shooting a Glock or any other composite framed platform winning major events? I really don't know for a fact that anyone other than Sevigny is capable. So, wouldn't it be reasonable to conclude that Sevigny is an anomaly and the gun DOES matter?

Sorry, I can't dance, but I love a good discussion. :)

YES, But.......the majority of shooters shoot 1911/2011 pistols than polymer. Maybe that polymers have not been around as long and the 1911 basis was always most prevelant and widely available? You all know it is hard for old dogs to learn anything different!

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Hey, stop it! If I keep coming back to this thread it is going to mess up the faux carbon-fiber stenciling job I am doing to my frame. :P

:lol::lol::lol:

I belive we need to see this faux job in the gallery!!

Yes by all means, there are many of us here that enjoy a good faux job.

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Mr. Habicht's comments are great.

Another example: My last department also issued Beretta 96D pistols; big, heavy, with very long and heavy trigger pulls. We had lots of "smaller statured" officers who could barely make the thing go off, let alone even finish the qual course we were shooting.

We did some homework, some shuckin' and jiving, and cashed some IOUs and got the department to issue the officers choice of the G21, G22, G23, or a 4" 1911. Every officer came out and test drove the guns, and based on this made their pick.

We gave everybody 32 hrs of transition training; we had some of the worst shooters hitting a steel gong at 75 yrd....weakhand only. Good times. Certainly all of our "problem shooters" are cured now. After all, we switched to more shootable guns, right? And these guns are somehow inherently better, right?

6 months later, the same people who could barely qualify before...who during transition training were doing amazing feats with their new gun....went right back to shooting like hammered crap. Only now the problem was not the "this trigger is too heavy" but other stuff. It wasn't the gun. It was their failure to train.

In the absence of 2011 hype, sexyness, cool factor, etc I don't see there is big difference in someone's performance between the various platforms. Perception, certainly. Performance, nah. You can have the sexiest gun on the range, but that sexy gun won't knock those plates down all by itself.

We mostly agree that time is lost in USPSA not in the shooting, but rather in the movement. That fancy ass gun with the SightTracker helps you move? Really? Your slide lightening lets you get in position smoother? Do tell.

Someone opined that people who would be willing to spend $2k on their gun would be more likely to spend $ on training; patently, glaringly not always the case.

Cops don't shoot their duty guns for lots of reasons; one of them is that anything work related is negative/stressful, and they want to get away from work stuff.

FY42385

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We mostly agree that time is lost in USPSA not in the shooting, but rather in the movement. That fancy ass gun with the SightTracker helps you move? Really? Your slide lightening lets you get in position smoother? Do tell.

FY42385

Anyone know where I can get a pair of $2,000 cleats?? :P:P

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Depends?

Does everyone live in a similar house, drive the same car, work at the same job, wear the same underwear, etc....?

But you gotta keep up with the Joneses and S_I are the standard in USPSA.

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We mostly agree that time is lost in USPSA not in the shooting, but rather in the movement. That fancy ass gun with the SightTracker helps you move? Really? Your slide lightening lets you get in position smoother? Do tell.

FY42385

Anyone know where I can get a pair of $2,000 cleats?? :P:P

I have the very cleats you speak of...SEND ME A CHECK posthaste

[these shoes are hand tied and hand laced. Act now. Supplies limited.]

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At least from my input to this thread, you are missing a [potential] differental in here. The difference in savings in accelerated learning, thus less perishable cost for equal gain for a fairly new shooter who has made the decision to dedicate themselves.

Want accelerated learning? Buy a Glock, some better sights, polish the trigger friction points, slap on some Tru-grip, and spend the savings over a 2011 on reloading components. Shoot those components, following a productive practice plan over the first year. I'll wager, that if two shooters start with the same dollar total available, and follow the same dryfire schedule, that the guy who can put more rounds downrange will be the more proficient shooter when the money is exhausted.....

I agree totally. Take 2 new guys off the street, equal ability, give one a Glock and $1500, and one an STI, no extra money (he's broke right?). The guy with a Glock and $1500 of ammo/quality dry fire/training will out perform the STI guy over time, because he has practiced, and been trained on the other 80% of the game, efficient movement, consistency, etc - in addition to just the trigger time part.

Now, take 2 guys and give one a Glock, one an STI, and the same training budget/will power etc, and I'll bet on the STI guy everytime.

A Glock is all you need to be competitive at the highest levels. But an STI is just....well... more refined, easier to drive. Each to his own.

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We mostly agree that time is lost in USPSA not in the shooting, but rather in the movement. That fancy ass gun with the SightTracker helps you move? Really? Your slide lightening lets you get in position smoother? Do tell.

FY42385

Anyone know where I can get a pair of $2,000 cleats?? :P:P

I have the very cleats you speak of...SEND ME A CHECK posthaste

[these shoes are hand tied and hand laced. Act now. Supplies limited.]

You know Kyle if they make you start faster, stop quicker ,move faster, are more comfortable and last longer then you may just have a market for them. I think thats how STI got its market. :devil:

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The real question is if you have 2 guys that are equal in every other way and give one any 500.00 gun and one an STI , I will bet and win that the STI guy will outperform the other.

The fact Dave won the nationals with a glock doesnt mean the Glock is as good as the STi but that Dave was that much better in other areas of the match in that match.

Its not that the Glock isnt as good but for this sport the STI is more applicable to the needs for doing well in this sport.

Edited by chuckbradley
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The real question is if you have 2 guys that are equal in every other way and give one any 500.00 gun and one an STI , I will bet and win that the STI guy will outperform the other.

The fact Dave won the nationals with a glock doesnt mean the Glock is as good as the STi but that Dave was that much better in other areas of the match in that match.

Its not that the Glock isnt as good but for this sport the STI is more applicable to the needs for doing well in this sport.

Did anyone else here the Gregorian chanting in the background while reading this, or am I the only one. B)

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We mostly agree that time is lost in USPSA not in the shooting, but rather in the movement. That fancy ass gun with the SightTracker helps you move? Really? Your slide lightening lets you get in position smoother? Do tell.

FY42385

Anyone know where I can get a pair of $2,000 cleats?? :P:P

I have the very cleats you speak of...SEND ME A CHECK posthaste

[these shoes are hand tied and hand laced. Act now. Supplies limited.]

I'm all out of $2000.00 cleats but I have the $2500.00 ones!! Their even faster!!

Let me know I"ll pick them,,ahh have them in an hour!!

Just to put some more gas on the fire, I knew this guy(no joke) that washed the big ocean view windows

on homes in Malibu CA.. He had the most clients in the area, how? Simple, from his own mouth, "I just call

all the competitors and ask their price, then add 35%. I dont do a better job or anything but they think since

I charge the most I must be the best". Seems when moneys not an issue it all comes down to price!!

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Hey now...my cleats come with tuned socks (extra charge). They do require the user to run extra long shoe laces, for best result. You aren't getting these babies at Wal-mart.

Just fun'in folks...don't get your panties in a bunch (ask us about our "open division" panties)

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We mostly agree that time is lost in USPSA not in the shooting, but rather in the movement. That fancy ass gun with the SightTracker helps you move? Really? Your slide lightening lets you get in position smoother? Do tell.

FY42385

Anyone know where I can get a pair of $2,000 cleats?? :P:P

I have the very cleats you speak of...SEND ME A CHECK posthaste

[these shoes are hand tied and hand laced. Act now. Supplies limited.]

I was all set to order two pair (one always needs a backup pair since spare eyelets for custom shoes are not as easily available as for a pair of Keds) when I realized my woefully illogical thinking and realized that my favorite pair of flip-flops will allow me to start, stop, and traverse a COF while affording protection to my delicate tootsies in a far less haughty package.

Uh, got a price on the Open Class panties? (Well, that relapse didn't take long.) :rolleyes:

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It is open division panties, not class. Think about it. It's a subtle...but important...distinction.

Here is Tilley in flip-flops (from Henning's great website): http://henningshootsguns.com/movies/2006Ca...risshooting.wmv

I've shot in sandles a few times. It bite me at the end of this year. I caught an edge and the toe of my sandles curled under. It was rather funny. That is when the idea for Fleet of Feet Cleats® hit me.

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Dang, another procedural......

I think I keep saying that because I used to race Open Class back in my motocross days. You know, back when dinosaurs ruled the earth.

Edited by Neomet
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Anyone know where I can get a pair of $2,000 cleats?? :P:P

I'll ask my wife.

If there's any way you could spend $2000 on a pair of shoes, she'll know about it.

I thought about making an inquiry to the US Olympic team, but they probably run the track in combat boots.

That way they can spend less on equipment and more on training.

After all, it's the runner, not the shoe that matters.

Tony

Edited by 38superman
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I thought about making an inquiry to the US Olympic team, but they probably run the track in combat boots.

That way they can spend less on equipment and more on training.

After all, it's the runner, not the shoe that matters.

You mean...like this guy:

"Abebe Bikila was the first black African to win an Olympic gold medal. He won the marathon running barefoot in Rome in 1960..."

:)

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I found an old thread the other day. It came in handy to point out how flat a (stock) Glock can shoot at Major power factor.

I bring it up here because it is handy, and relavent.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...c=23173&hl=

Now, in this thread, folks are talking about how important the gun is. Well, if you look at the videos in the first post of that thread (link above)...you can see that my stock Glock was playing with the open gunners. And, um...it ain't like these guys don't know how to shoot. But, the Glock did alright (and oddly enough...the sights were off).

1 Littman, Open 78 0 7.72 10.1036 80.0000

Farris, LIMITED 78 0 8.00 9.7500

2 Anderson, Open 78 0 8.30 9.3976 74.4099

3 Divita, Open 80 0 9.30 8.6022 68.1120

4 Fadorsen Open 76 0 10.23 7.4291 58.8234

5 Seevers, Open 77 0 11.22 6.8627 54.3387

6 Moneypenny Open 79 0 11.56 6.8339 54.1106

Come on...a Glock up there against the Open guns...on a 10 factor stage. Those other guys must not know how to shoot??? :rolleyes:

Did I mention the sights were off? How could the Glock hold up? Had to be a good index...shooting with the front sight out of the notch...or, a good center hold and trigger control, such that...with an accurate gun...I was still able to catch the Alphas.

How much accuracy do we need in this game again ? Let's see...the A-zone on paper is 66 square inches. An 8 in plate has an area of 50 square inches.

OK...you might say that is all well and good. But, what if the target is 35+ yards away...and the A-zone is guarded on both sides by no-shoots???

Well, this match had an array of targets like that too. (Um...that is how I found out my sights were off. :blink: )

It can be pretty disheartening to walk down range..knowing you broke good shots...only to find that you were nailing the no-shoots (waaaay off).

Here is how that played out:

Farris, Kyle Limited 59 50 18.58 0.4844 8.7374

Ouch. But, my groups, hold and trigger control were such that I was able to notice a pattern.

So, we we went around on the reshoot...I held off. In fact, I held right on the no-shoots. Think about that...breaking the trigger when your sights are sitting right on the freakin' WHITE penalty target.

So, how did the Glock do...best hit factor of the day, on a stage stacked with accuracy dependent shots (Oh...against Open guns and great shooters).

Farris, Kyle Limited 75 0 11.75 6.3830

1 Anderson, Steve Open 73 0 11.78 6.1969 80.0000 100.00%

2 Littman, David Open 72 0 11.92 6.0403 77.9783 97.47%

3 Moneypenny, Open 70 0 12.69 5.5162 71.2124 89.02%

4 Divita, Jake Open 70 20 10.60 4.7170 60.8950 76.12%

5 Fadorsen, John Open 70 10 13.04 4.6012 59.4000 74.25%

6 Seevers, Bill Open 73 0 18.70 3.9037 50.3955 62.99%

Now, these guys are all my buddies. And, I almost didn't post this because of that. I want to point out that they have all handed me my ass too. But, it's because of execution. It's not because the gun isn't good enough.

Folks, buy whatever gun you like. It needs to run and not hold you back. It should be reliable and it should be able to find the A-zone on any target we are likely to see in a match. It ought to float your boat and make you happy.

Just don't tell me a Glock isn't good enough.

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OK...you might say that is all well and good. But, what if the target is 35+ yards away...and the A-zone is guarded on both sides by no-shoots???

Hahaha! Yeah - right. Like 35 yard targets EVER happen at the typical USPSA match these days. You must be confusing our current hoser sport (USPSA) with IPSC where they actually DO put tough targets further than 5-10 yards away. True, we used to shoot 50 yard standards in USPSA. Nowadays, we just hose.

Its sad. AND - the fact that 99% of the targets are easy close range targets make that $2000 gun (the one that can hold under 3" at 50 yards) even LESS justifiable, IMHO.

But, even if the targets are 35 yards away, the Glock can easily keep up. Sevigny's Limited win was no fluke. Niether was his L-10 win. Or all the other Glock wins. Remember, the Glock also won in IPSC when it was scored minor AND the targets' A zones were smaller AND they were farther away. But if you believe you NEED 3" at 50 yards, John Nagel can now build you an Open gun to do it without resorting to an STI, SV or SPS frame/slide.

Flex wrote: "Just don't tell me a Glock isn't good enough."

Agreed.

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It ought to float your boat and make you happy.

Just don't tell me a Glock isn't good enough.

I think the S_I vs Glock boils down to this in the end. You can do equally well with either, but the illusion that you're shooting a better gun makes people happy (or, the illusion that they're shooting the worse gun makes them want the "better" one...)

BTW Kyle, your sights were off? Did you finally drift them Glock sights to the right, like you're supposed to? ;):P

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It ought to float your boat and make you happy.

Just don't tell me a Glock isn't good enough.

I think the S_I vs Glock boils down to this in the end. You can do equally well with either, but the illusion that you're shooting a better gun makes people happy (or, the illusion that they're shooting the worse gun makes them want the "better" one...)

BTW Kyle, your sights were off? Did you finally drift them Glock sights to the right, like you're supposed to? ;):P

Nah...as I recall...they were hitting in the other direction (which is how I knew not to chaulk it up to that trigger control issue...that some have. lol :) ). I had had the sight off the gun for some reason and when I put them back in I didn't get them centered up.

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