Monday Morning QBs and the Police

[DBeck77]

I have a first cousin who has been a deputy sheriff for almost 30 years in northwest Florida. He and 2 other deputies got called into a situation where a suicidal man was driving erratically, threatening suicide, and brandishing a firearm. After following this guy to his home and into his back yard in an attempt to get him to drop the weapon, the guy raised the gun at the officers and was shot by all 3. The man's family has been very understanding and realize that the cops had no other alternative here.

There are a few idiots in the community who have been asking why they didn't shoot to wound, use a taser, beanbag, etc.. I feel for my cousin here, to know that you had to take a human life and then be second-guessed and criticized by people who have never had a weapon aimed at them from 10 feet away. The level of ignorance about firearms and police training is pretty astounding, to think that officers would try to shoot a gun out of someone's hand when they are in immediate danger of being shot is pretty dang stupid.

Here is a link to the story for those interested, if you read the comments from the public on the story some of them are pretty far out there:

http://www.pnj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?A...ENTERTAINMENTfe

[HSMITH]

Hopefully the asshats that have never had a gun pointed at them maliciously will be known as asshats, and furthermore hopefully very few more will know what it is like to look down the barrel of a gun.....

Pointing a gun at someone you may have to shoot is pretty extreme in itself.

I hope your cousin is able to get past this and continue his service to the community.

[JimmyZip]

I feel for your brother, the man should be rewarded not criticized,

and I find the shoot to wound thing the craziest! A freind of mine was accidently shot in the leg when we were kids. The bullet hit his femoral artery( I think thats the big one in your leg, I could be wrong) He bled out and died before the ambulance could even get there. What about tazers? Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't, and the guy had a GUN!

I'm not exactly the most rabid pro-gun, cop loving person, but I do not envy what it is that they do, nor do I second guess them unless I have seen it all in context. ( which I have only once)

It is they that help to keep me safe, and my wife and kids when I am not with them. I will pray that your brother gets through this well.

JZ

[Johann the Horrible]

What the guy did is called "Suicide by Police". Obviously some people would complain, it comes with the territory when you become a Police officer. I shot and killed a man that shot at me with a revolver in 1998. He called the Police and claimed to be holding his ex-wife and daughter hostage. Turned out the gun was loaded with rounds where the bullets were removed and replaced with paper(looked and sounded just like the real thing) and that his ex and daughter was not even in the country. People do it so that it cannot be claimed that they committed suicide.

I feel for your brother and would strongly advise that he goes for counseling- I did not and left the Police with "Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder".

[boz1911]

Sorry, someone points a gun at me, the last thing on my mind would be "shoot to wound". The police did exactly what they should have.

[Ted Murphy]

There are a few idiots in the community who have been asking why they didn't shoot to wound, use a taser, beanbag, etc..

I've seen that in the paper up my way, where they condemned the police for not using shooting the guy in the leg when he was attacking police with a lethal weapon. Thos folks see too many movies and have no range time IMO.

Ted

[SA Friday]

Yep, what Ted brought up: the TMT factor - Too Much TV. Everone knows everything seen on TV is the way it is. Oh it's true, it's true...

[hf219]

Suicide by Cop is becoming more regular these days. What the worst part of it is, that these people may need help, dont know how to get it, and sometimes they cant drop the hook themselves. Therefore they pull an officer into making a decision that (We were told wouldnt be Monday Armchair Quarterbacked) may not be the best after finding out all the facts surrounding the situation( replica firearm, unloaded gun, ect.). We as police officers have these things over our heads on every decision, with the best training, some officers think before they react, some just react. Either can be disastorous with its outcome, depending on the officers training. I think its best said that most police officers want to go home to their families at the end of their shift, we are paid to protect and serve the community. WE ARE NOT PAID TO PLAY RUSSIAN ROULETTE WITH OUR LIVES! Most people have the opinion that every police officer is a GM level shooter. With that misconception imprinted in the average citizens mind, its not suprising that they would think an officer could trick shot a wound on a suspect that would incapacitate them. What most people dont realize is that at least in my state your not allowed by state law to do anything that would put yourself or others in greater danger(as an officer in that predescribed situation). Therefore the wounding aspect or trick shot is out. Even if it worked out you could be brought up on charges of reckless endangerment. Would it happen who knows, am I going to be the test case for that situation, forget it. The mere firing of a firearm in the direction of another is considered deadly force in our state. If a LEO in NJ fires their weapon they own that intention, with that in mind, theres only one reason to discharge the gun. The worst part of all of this, that the officer may or may not get the help to cope with that situation after its all done. My best wishes go out to the officers involved in that action and their families. H

[smokshwn]

Just had a similar situation go down here

OIS

Many of the comments are exactly what you are talking about.

Give your cousin our support. Unfortunately much of the idiocy is fueled by a media that couldn't get a story right if they wrote the script and then filmed the event. The need to continually showcase and build controversy only lends itself to many of the misconceptions/false info that gets out.

[Turbo23]

Yep, what Ted brought up: the TMT factor - Too Much TV. Everone knows everything seen on TV is the way it is. Oh it's true, it's true...

+1 Spend a day in thier shoes before oyu judge them!!

[DBeck77]

My cousin is a good guy who has served the community in a thankless job for almost 30 years. He is also one hell of a shooter, I grew up shooting and hunting with him and I have been with him while he was firing his service weapon (SIG 226 at that time). I believe he has the support system through family, friends, and the department to get past all this. I guess there are always people who want to tear down people who are there to serve and protect the rest of us.

I remember when I worked at Texas Instruments in Dallas back in the late 80s there was a hostage situation at DFW with a guy holding a gun to the head of a kid. Several of the engineers (DUH) I worked with were incredulous that the police didn't just shoot the cocked revolver right out of the guy's hand and end the situation. I tried to explain how stupid that plan was but many never got it.

David

[Carlos]

"Suicide-by-cop" is real, and probably more common than is reported; it is VERY difficult to make such a call. VERY unfortunate situation for all the survivors.

[CMV]

I am a cop in one of the most criticized and maligned police departments in the country. In addition, I investigate police involved shootings. I've reached the realization that no matter how blatantly justifiable a police officer may be in given situation, there will always be some idiots out there who think they could have done better. Never mind that they lack the courage or character to be in that sort of situation in the first place, they know and would have done better. Some of these people use these incidents for political gain, some simply because they are ignorant. In coming to the above realization, I have also come to the conclusion that the only thing that truly matters to ANYONE involved in a use of deadly force is that the justification has to start from within. If you shoot someone, you have to know that use of deadly force was justified and move on from there. Then so long as you articulate it appropriately it should be deem legally justifiable.

Then, as to the rest of "them", who cares? You will never convince them so why butt your head against that brick wall?

[Chuck Anderson]

We've had two reasonably recent incidents of this. The first two officer shot a "star soccer player who was going to be attending "X" college." Of course the darling child was already out of High School (It was November) was not going to college, was drunk, and was brandishing a knife yelling shoot me. He also had been shot 4 times with Bean Bags with no effect. After the officers shot him, some idiot actually wrote the newspaper saying that the Crocodile Hunter could handle all sorts of animals without shooting them, why can't police. He actually suggested that Poilce be required to carry a rope and a net with them. (Of course this was shortly before the Crocodile Hunter was killed by a big fish). Just a week a so a friend of mine was stabbed three times but a suicidal guy. He tried to avoid shooting him like ever other dipwad suggested and was nearly killed for his trouble.

[Cactustactical]

One of the unintended consequences of a free society and the First Amendment is the "right" for people to say almost anything, no matter how bizarre or uneducated that it is.

I am not law enforcement, but my brother is and was involved in one of these situations a while back. He got through by keeping in mind that he knew what happened was by the book, his fellow officers knew that it was, and those who are capable of intelligent thought knew that it was. After a bit of self reflection, he was able to filter out all of the nonsense in the local press and viewed the situation for what it was.

Not everyone is able to do that, but I am really glad that he was. He has been able to move on and still enjoys his job.

[MichiganShootist]

We had one recently when a perp. was shot by two LEOs after he charged them with a machette in one hand and a hatchet in the other. The officers pepper sprayed the guy from head to toe and he still kept comming.... They obviously had no choice and were cleared of any wrong doing..... but they were both on leave for 4 or 5 months while the shooting was investigated. This even though there was something like 7 eye witnesses who backed up the LEOs report and a patrol cam video of the event which showed the retreating officers warning the guy 5 times to drop his weapons.

The newspapers made a stink about it.... with comments like "since there were two officers on the scene, one must wonder why the officers just didn't simply over power the man"

I'd like to see a couple of the reporters take on a well armed person who was so high on drugs that the pepper spray had ZERO effect on him.

[racerba]

The officers should take all these critics on patrol with them and have them show the officers how to handle the situation first. Then, the officers will have more time to react while the perp is stabbing at the critics.

[oddjob]

Glad your cousin is ok..........Support him & he should be fine. I was involved in a shooting where I shot & killed a suspect armed with a Browning Hi-Power 9mm during the service of a search warrant. He came out of a bedroom and shot my partner in the hand and I returned fire with a H&K-53 (full-auto) and ended the fight. The support I received from family, friends, co-workers and the homicide detectives was wonderful. The support I received from my "non-sworn" friends (including USPSA members at the local clubs) was probably more important to me than from co-workers or my family. The only negative comments I received was from the suspect's family members and the local paper which stated my partner was shot by friendly fire (me).

[SiG Lady]

We had a 'suicide by cop' sort of scene here in Eugene a few months back: Young kid on his own premises, a known "mental", threatening everyone in sight with a butcher knife, and here came the police, of course. They hadn't quite yet been issued tasers (it was in the works) so didn't yet have that useful option in this instance. Having already moved up the Use of Force Continuum in the prescribed manner, the kid's threats became a physical rush toward one of the LEOs and he fired at him, killing him. I happen to have met the officer in question a couple of weeks before this happened and he was an intelligent and exceptional guy in every way.

Naturally, the letters-to-the-editor were about 50/50 for/against the shooting, and the critical ones were absurd. These assfaces should go on a couple of evening ride-alongs, should tour the local county Jail, and should be made to watch in-car police videos of BGs assaulting police officers and/or killing them right there on camera... THEN come back and write a PROPER letter-to-the-editor... if they haven't thrown up all over themselves in the meantime.

The 'audience' out there just doesn't have a clue.

[kevin c]

TMT is right.

Not too long agon I saw footage of a man threatening to shoot himself and others (no hostage, though). He'd put the gun down on top of the car he was next to, pick it up again and wave it around, point it back and his head and so on. A police sniper shot the gun away the next time he downed it and then the rest of the cops took him down physically.

It was a nice shot, but now I realize that it could easily make the lay person think that this is possible in all circumstances.

[smokshwn]

TMT is right.

Not too long agon I saw footage of a man threatening to shoot himself and others (no hostage, though). He'd put the gun down on top of the car he was next to, pick it up again and wave it around, point it back and his head and so on. A police sniper shot the gun away the next time he downed it and then the rest of the cops took him down physically.

It was a nice shot, but now I realize that it could easily make the lay person think that this is possible in all circumstances.

The two shoot the gun videos out there are arguably some of the most reckless use of lethal force that has been documented. Oddly enough they are heralded by the uneducated public as "nice shots" when in fact they had a huge potential for far more harm than they solved.

[Chuck Anderson]

We had a similar shooting. S-B-C where the bad guy kept putting gun to head, put it on car, put gun to head, put it on car etc. He even got a gas can out of the trunk, poured it on the roof and then sat inside smoking. The SWAT commander asked the sniper if he could shoot the gun when it was on the roof. Sniper refused to. Guy eventually got tired of screwing around, picked up gun and started walking towards southern containment pointing it at them. Sniper put a .308 through his ear.

The problem with shooting the gun is twofold, one there is a bullet from the snipers weapon that will ricochet and go on unknown path. The second and bigger problem is the bullet from the suspects gun. Snipercraft did a study where they shot a number of firearms to see what would happen. The majority of the time the gun would discharge and the bullet would go ...somewhere. The determination is that deliberately shooting the gun is a reckless act that really can't be justified.

[smokshwn]

The SWAT commander asked the sniper if he could shoot the gun when it was on the roof. Sniper refused to. Sniper put a .308 through his ear.

That was well played...