Letter I sent to my Area Director

[zhunter]

Charles

I am writing to you in hopes that as my Area Director you can put my idea forward to help out, not only me, but many of the very frustrated shooters in USPSA. You see, the scheduling of the USPSA Nationals is once again being done very late, in fact, too late for me to be able to schedule work, or better yet, schedule time off of work to be able to attend Nationals unless it is just dumb luck that they fall on my NOW predetermined time off.

What I would like to see is the BOD create a By-Law that REQUIRES all USPSA Nationals to be scheduled one year in advance of the start of the competition. This would allow normal working people like me, to be able schedule time off to be able to attend and participate in the biggest match of the year.

I, along with many other shooters, feel the time has come to stop relying on the president to schedule these big matches at such a late date to preclude many of us from having the chance to participate in our National Championship. By enacting a By-Law, it would be mandatory that the next years championship schedule be published in a timely manner, rather than at the whim of our current president.

I certainly look forward to your response and hope that as my Area Director, you can put this forward, not only on my behalf, but on the behalf of the thousands of shooters that make up USPSA.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Jay Townsend

L-2871

[tightloop]

Well said....

[EZ Bagger]

You almost sound rational

[Religious Shooter]

I think they are doing fine. I don't think it is the norm for a shooter to require 1+ year in advance to shoot a multi-day match. Put up a poll asking how much time is needed by the voter. I'd like to see what the actual norm is.

I think the chances are that a small minority of shooters require 1+ years notice. I don't want to see a debilitating rule put in place for a small minority.

[Kingman]

We have had this conversation a lot. Many of us have said in the past that we need time.

it is december. If they decide June which would make sense to be before world cup that is now 6 months or less to put plans together. That just does not work for some.

[EZ Bagger]

I don't want to see a debilitating rule put in place for a small minority.

Debilitating? How? Whom does it hurt to have the dates set a year or more in advance?

[Chris Keen]

I agree. Given Mike Voight's track-record of providing timely information, I highly doubt we will hear the announcement anytime this year (2007). So that puts us into January of 2008 which is right around (or less than) 6 months time to plan accordingly.

Not enough advance notice IMO.

I am not in the percentage of shooters who have to schedule their vacation by December (probably because I work for a small company of 30 employees) but that doesn't mean I don't want to / or need to make plans regarding travel / lodging as soon as possible. Even with my employers flexible vacation policy ...... 1st come 1st served still applies. I could end up being denied my vacation request.

I don't know ...... because I DON'T KNOW WHEN NATIONALS WILL BE.

Edited December 1, 2007 by CHRIS KEEN

[wide45]

How many facilities have put in a bid to host the Nationals?

If there has been only 1 bid, will the bylaws require it be accepted regardless of the terms?

If there have been no bids?

[smokshwn]

I think they are doing fine. I don't think it is the norm for a shooter to require 1+ year in advance to shoot a multi-day match. Put up a poll asking how much time is needed by the voter. I'd like to see what the actual norm is.

I think the chances are that a small minority of shooters require 1+ years notice. I don't want to see a debilitating rule put in place for a small minority.

Gordon,

I have a hard time understanding how scheduling and getting contracts in place is somehow a negative for our sport. Could you please explain the pitfalls you see in having a schedule for National events 1-2 years in advance?

I honestly cannot think of any cons yet there are many positives.

1) Area and other major matches can schedule their dates to be complimentary to the Nationals.

2) Planning in general for the event can be done by the staff who so graciously work to put on a match for YOU. No more last minute shuck and jive to get RO's, RM's, Catering, Stages, Props, etc.etc.etc.

3) Planning by the shooters to include many other facets than just vacation ie. travel, budgeting, school, family, etc.

4) Better facilities planning in the host area ie. banquet meeting facilities, lodging, local activities etc. As an example, lodging in Missoula was very high as it was at the height of their tourist season. If more time had been given I am sure a much better match rate could have been obtained. However when you call a hotel that is already booked out on your weekend, what is there incentive to give your group a discount/deal.

5) There may be a boost in participation at Nationals/Major matches by a larger portion of the membership due to the fact that a schedule is set and can be anticipated.

[scirocco38s]

I think they are doing fine. I don't think it is the norm for a shooter to require 1+ year in advance to shoot a multi-day match. Put up a poll asking how much time is needed by the voter. I'd like to see what the actual norm is.

I think the chances are that a small minority of shooters require 1+ years notice. I don't want to see a debilitating rule put in place for a small minority.

I dont agree, there is absolutely no reason why it hasnt already been done. The reason of the new president should choose the venue is not rational. The existing president should choose and the new president would get to choos his last year in office also. Most every sectional and Area already knows when they are having their match and cannot plan around the nationals anymore because of this delay in the president and headquaters not taking action.

[Jim Norman]

IF and that is the proverbial BIG IF....

We were to have a rule that says we must schedule a year in advance, or perhaps not later than the finish of the then underway nationals, or no later than 30 October of the previous year we could make this work. Yes the first year could be a cluster. After that we would all know the drop dead dates. yes some might take advantage but would that be much different than now? The later it gets, the more likely we are to be desperate. If we negotiate with the 5-7 places that are capable over a year in advance, perhaps in a reverse auction sort of arrangement where the low bid wins and all bids are open until the closing bell, you see the others bids and decide, I can do this for less and make a bid, or you decide I will pass and let Range X have it this year.

A couple things could help here, USPSA could acquire a viable over the road trailer in which to load and store USPSA props. Said trailer would be delivered to the host range a month plus in advance of the match to be inventoried and any repairs made (Other arrangements for storage and repair could be made)

I just cannot understand why we can't make a decision on where to hold the nats a year or two or even three in advance. There are two decisions. Which range? Which dates? Once we decide on a range, we then have to schedule the date. We don't really even care too much what those dates are. Why? Because IF we were to schedule them two years in advance the only match we'd need to consider might be the World Shoot. What Area or Section would plan a match on top of the Nats? As it stands now, the calendar is filling which reduces the choices for a Nats as well as placing more power in the hands of the host and less in our hands.

All this said, I might or I might not attend the Nats. I have no problem scheduling time off, I could arguably leave decide Friday to take next week off, UNLESS my managers, or my partner have already scheduled the same week. The real question becomes one of will i have already scheduled enough other matches and family vacations. How many others will make the decision not to attend the later the dates get announced? We wonder why we don't have a match with 600 shooters? Maybe because no knows soon enough? Maybe the quality of our matches could be improved if we had a longer ramp up time to the actual match?

I admit I don't have the answers, then again I also admit that I don't have to have them. I didn't run for office. and I certainly didn't win.

Jim

[Rob Boudrie]

What I would like to see is the BOD create a By-Law that REQUIRES all USPSA Nationals to be scheduled one year in advance of the start of the competition.

While we're at it, we could have a bylaw that requires USPSA to hold the nationals on precipitation free days with temperatures between 65 and 85.

It's not always that easy to get a contract signed, and details have to be worked out. Also, telling our vendors there is a "drop dead" could dramatically reduce USPSA's ability to negotiate if we got close to that date with no signed contract.

I favor early announcement of the dates, and will encourage the president to get the contract ironed out as early as possible, but it's not as simple as "say it must be so and it will happen".

Rob

[EZ Bagger]

If this were an issue of not having venues to hold the Nats at, that would be one thing. But, given the fact that we are told nothing other than shut up and wait, why would we think that there is any underlying issue other than that it just hasn't been done? This is a membership club. The membership deserves better service in this regard.

[Jake Di Vita]

Weather has nothing to do with scheduling the match in advance Rob. You are comparing two totally different things.

As was said earlier. Where at, and what dates. If there is a pressing reason as to why it isn't that simple, I would love to see some communication from the President to the membership explaining why.

Yeah, it isn't always that easy to get a contract signed....but how many years has this been happening for? I really don't think it's so amazingly complex that a decade is not enough time to fix a very obvious problem.

[zhunter]

It's not always that easy to get a contract signed, and details have to be worked out. Also, telling our vendors there is a "drop dead" could dramatically reduce USPSA's ability to negotiate if we got close to that date with no signed contract.

Rob

Rob

I respectfully disagree!!! Our "vendors" know at this VERY moment that time is running out, which is NO different than if time was running out in August. Deadlines are deadlines!!!! Whether it is a set time of my suggestion of one year in advance, or just a matter of time getting short as it is now. I just don't think you thought the above out very well.

This is a membership club. The membership deserves better service in this regard.

THANK YOU!!!!

It is time for the tail to STOP wagging the dog!!!!

[bgary]

Yeah, it isn't always that easy to get a contract signed....but how many years has this been happening for?

Rob's point is that, if there is a bylaws-required drop-dead date, it could put USPSA in a really bad position.

Imagine that there is a bylaw that says contracts have to be signed and dates announced by [pick a date... October 1st?]. Now, lets say that for whatever reason, we are at September 25th, we are in final talks with one venue, and there are no other viable venues in the running.

Having a drop-dead date means that vendor has USPSA over a barrel, from a negotiating standpoint. An unscrupulous vendor could say, for example, "OK, the price just doubled, and it will double again tomorrow, unless you agree to _____."

I'm *not* saying we shouldn't work to get dates announced MUCH sooner than they are... I'm just saying that every time the Board has considered putting a "deadline" on it, that's one of the major sticking points that we have run into. We *have* to be able to negotiate without our backs against the wall....

IMHO, the solution is not to put a deadline in place. The solution is to move the whole process up a year or so, so that we can *comfortably* negotiate with the two-years-out venue. That would seem to best serve everyone's interests...

$.02

B

[scirocco38s]

What I would like to see is the BOD create a By-Law that REQUIRES all USPSA Nationals to be scheduled one year in advance of the start of the competition.

While we're at it, we could have a bylaw that requires USPSA to hold the nationals on precipitation free days with temperatures between 65 and 85.

It's not always that easy to get a contract signed, and details have to be worked out. Also, telling our vendors there is a "drop dead" could dramatically reduce USPSA's ability to negotiate if we got close to that date with no signed contract.

I favor early announcement of the dates, and will encourage the president to get the contract ironed out as early as possible, but it's not as simple as "say it must be so and it will happen".

Rob

Rob, unfortunately I dont think any of your reasons hold water, in fact they sound like weak excuses. I repeat, there is no reason why we dont know this info as to where and when now. The BOD and the president should get this ironed out now and it should be the only priority on your next meeting.

[Nik Habicht]

There's also the crazy concept of tying the president's compensation to the process --- i.e. announce the dates in December, get paid X Dollars the following year; announce them in November get paid X Dollars + $1000, etc.

It's crazy, because performance incentives never work.....

[zhunter]

I'm *not* saying we shouldn't work to get dates announced MUCH sooner than they are... I'm just saying that every time the Board has considered putting a "deadline" on it, that's one of the major sticking points that we have run into. We *have* to be able to negotiate without our backs against the wall....

B

Well it IS nice to know that the BOD has considered it in the past!!!

And being things have OBVIOUSLY not gone the way many of it's members like, then MAYBE it is time to try a deadline!!! The present way of doing it is NOT working!!!! Not to many of our way of thinking.

OK, I did not put this in my original post, but I would think it would be a good idea if any of you have views similar to mine, so send a letter to YOUR Area Director!!!!!

Bruce, our vendors are NOT stupid, they know that time is now running short, and if they are negotiating a this late of a date, trust me, they have the knowledge that they have leverage!!!! The same way they would IF there were a one year deadline in place via a By-Law.

Come on guys, I hate to throw the "S" word out there, but you have to be stupid to believe that you are in a strong negotiating position at this late of a date!!! Step back and let some common sense sink in please!!!!

A deadline 6 months in advance it going to create that same negotiating leverage as one a year in advance, BUT, the year gives US dues paying members, yes, THE membership, time to make plans with regards to work, family etc....

There is NO downside to my suggestion!!!!!!!!

Edited December 2, 2007 by zhunter

[EricW]

Could the problem be getting the venues to get their collective crap(s?) together so far in advance...?

It might all seem different when you're the one herding the cats.

[EZ Bagger]

Could the problem be getting the venues to get their collective crap(s?) together so far in advance...?

It might all seem different when you're the one herding the cats.

Again, if that's the case...tell us.

[smokshwn]

Imagine that there is a bylaw that says contracts have to be signed and dates announced by [pick a date... October 1st?]. Now, lets say that for whatever reason, we are at September 25th, we are in final talks with one venue, and there are no other viable venues in the running.

Having a drop-dead date means that vendor has USPSA over a barrel, from a negotiating standpoint. An unscrupulous vendor could say, for example, "OK, the price just doubled, and it will double again tomorrow, unless you agree to _____."

B

Bruce,

With all due respect, how is the situation you describe above any different than trying to negotiate a contract in April/May for a Nationals date in Sept. ? Given the current process there is nothing stopping the venues from doing exactly what you describe above.

Having a deadline (even a "soft" deadline) would serve everyone involved. Venues capable of holding Nats could prepare their package to their own benefit, USPSA could negotiate 2-3 yrs ahead, members could make plans, and maybe we would see a HUGE interest in Nationals.

In looking at other shooting sports they tend to have a centered match/event/shoot that the rest of the season revolves around. This allows for many things but one of the most important that it offers a culmination to the season, a championship feeling if you will and something with which the organization can use to its benefit for recruitment, prestige, etc. If that event is regularly mischeduled, misplanned, or not well attended those benefits don't exist.

Edited December 2, 2007 by smokshwn

[EricW]

Could the problem be getting the venues to get their collective crap(s?) together so far in advance...?

It might all seem different when you're the one herding the cats.

Again, if that's the case...tell us.

Respectfully,

I believe Bruce just did. This isn't nearly as easy as it would seem on the surface. And until the economic model changes, this is pretty much the way it's going to continue. USPSA simply isn't in the position of being able to throw money at the problem in order to accelerate progress, which makes it characteristically different than the Olympics or the PGA (etc...).

[mactiger]

I beg to differ with Bruce and Rob. In the past, prior to this president's terms in office, the Nationals dates were spelled out in advance. Granted, they were generally held at PASA, under a long term contract, but we knew when (and where) they were going to be held.

Since the membership howled about long term contracts, we are now in the position of looking for venues one year at a time, but there is no reason those contracts can't be negotiated a year ahead of time. How many places are there to look at, realistically, and why can't those particular ranges be contacted a year or two in advance? It's not that complicated--pick a spot, work out the terms, and get it done.

Troy

[Jaxshooter]

We got just what we deserved due to the small voter turnout. We are stuck with the same old ---- for another 4 years. The only way to make things change is to elect leadership that listens and communicates with the membership. It has not been that way in the past, is anybody foolish enough to think lightening is going to strike and change things?

As to venues, have a deadline for bids to hold the Nationals for a one or two year period. Mail bid invitations to those clubs with facilities to host the Nationals. USPSA should be run like any other business not at the leisure of one person. It is the BODs responsibility to the membership to effect the changes desired by the members.