The Cleanest Burning Powder

[Carlos]

QUOTE (Rufus)

Titegroup IS NOT clean, I just don't buy into it being the cleanest powder on the market lie.

REPLY TO QUOTE (Duane Thomas) "Lie" is a pretty strong word. I'm simply recounting my experiences, and the experiences of Allan Jones, head ballistician at Speer, who reports Titegroup as being literally twice as clean as any other powder Speer has ever tested. That may not match your experience, but I assure you that neither of us is lying.

Rufus: I have to agree w/ Duane that "lie" is a bit strong. Duane was kind enough to do the homework and call up Speer, then kind enough to share the results of his excellent investigative work w/ the rest of the reloading community through this site and through Blue Press. Your results may not agree, but lets at least keep things civil - especially here for the sake of our gracious host.

Duane: I remember your posts and I read the article in Blue Press. Thanks. One thing seems to be missing though. You did not specify what caliber and specific load was used by speer in their "ejecta test" that indicated Titegroup is the cleanest powder they ever tested. If the caliber Speer used for the ejecta test was 9mm AND it was loaded close to SAAMI max loads (around 35,000 PSI I believe) then my personal testing results agree w/ yours - Titegroup is quite clean and maybe the cleanest ever. I did not do an ejecta test myself (who does?) but Titegroup left the gun quite clean. I would imagine the same results could be obtained from a high pressure loading in .40 caliber.

However, your article also advocated the use of Titegroup in .44 and .45 - for its cleanliness. I tried Titegroup in .45 ACP loaded to the 165PF w/ bullets from 200 grains all the way down to the Westcoast 155grn sintered/plated rounded flatpoint. Since the loads were at minimum or below starting book loads in order to approach the PF, the pressures were obviously quite low; I would estimate 15,000 PSI or below. At low pressures, I personally found that Titegroup performed well - as your article indicates - but it was dirty. It not only left the soot mark you described int he article, it also left a noticeable amount of black soot on the feed ramp, breach face, and elsewhere on the gun. It left more soot that comparable loads of straight Clays powder.

I simply believe that Clays is a superior .45 ACP powder for light/ 165PF loads and I recommend Clays over Titegroup in .45ACP. Again, I appreciate your work in writing the article and I hope you will continue to contribute such articles because I enjoy reading about innovations in reloading. Regards,

Douglas

TY-44934

PS DIrtiest: 3 way tie: Unique!, Bluedot, W231/HP38

[TBF]

Duane,

Feel free to correct me if I say the wrong thing, my experience is limited to 1 pound of TG.

My experience is that TG is about twice as clean as Bullseye in appx. 170 pf loads.

The residue of TG is so fine it probably will not clog up the works.

I found Clays to be cleaner burning, but only suited to those " barely making pf loads ".

Bullseye cleans up considerably when loaded toward upper pressure limits in 357.

Travis F.

[SiG Lady]

Boy, this is one VERY interesting thread for yerz trooly who's getting ready to buy a reloader.......!!!!!!

Thanks for ALL the terrific input. (Clays is VERY popular in our crowd, BTW.)

[Flexmoney]

(Clays is VERY popular in our crowd, BTW.)

SL,

Ask around. I think that the Clays is likely the ticket for bullseye shooting (MINOR loads). Might be approaching the limit of the powder for MAJOR power factor loads though. ?

[sledgee]

Flex$-

You're right. Clays is about at its limit (nearly too fastburning) when at major pf in 45. That's not necessarily a bad thing, though.

It translates into low charge weights (economy) and clean burning characteristics.

I really like it.

Joe

[wide45]

The problem with Clays, is that it smells bad. Use it with those stinky black bullets, on an indoor range, and the other shooters WILL leave you alone.

[megaman]

i've had the same sooty mess on my feed ramp, inside the slide, and brass with tg when loaded in 40 s&w at approprimately 170pf. could it be because my oal isn't 1.135 (i seat my bullets at 1.200) so the bullet leaves the case before the powder can completely burn or burn to sufficiently get the "clean" characteristics that have been much touted ? i've also used tg with a 45 with the same messy result, however never to the point of malfunction even after about 500 rounds of 230 gr fmj's at 175 pf. but boy was that gun filthy!

[SiG Lady]

The problem with Clays, is that it smells bad.... on an indoor range, and the other shooters WILL leave you alone.

I dunno... there was certainly a lot of empty cartridge-sniffing goin' on last Tuesday night at League (see another thread for details), and shooters were FAR from complaining about "smell"--quite the contrary!! And most of us are using Clays.......

[Tokarev]

Old Red Dot was like burning coal in my guns. The new stuff is new and improved and is much cleaner burning. I use it mainly for trap loads. It's also great for the .45 ACP.

[TBF]

Siglady,

Alot of empty cartridge sniffin going on

And they liked it?

I got the " who had eggs for breakfast " smell from my batch of Clays.

I wonder how there can be so many different results for the same powder, in similar loads.

The whole TG discussion leads me to believe there may be some difference between lots

of powder, same burn rate, different formulation?

Travis F.

[Dowter]

Titegroup and Brian Enos's Slide Glide.

Man, I almost never have to clean my gun and it runs flawlessly.

[jhgtyre]

Dirtiest - I have to go with the HS6 crowd. I get huge amounts of smoke and filth in my 586 when I shoot HS6. With lead bullets the smoke is so dense that I can't see the target. Talk about the "fog of war!"

Cleanest - Winchester Super Target. I have run it in my .45 and my .38 super (minor loads) and it has been very clean, cleaner than VV 320, cheaper too.

[Ktulu]

I just started reloading this year. Best financial decision I've made. I started out using HS-6 because that's what the guy who helped me get started used. The stuff consistently jammed my gun.

One weekend after shooting a match, I shot an IDPA classifier. I had my usuall few failure-to-return-to-battery jams. On the last very last shot of the classifier my gun was so gunked up I manually racked the gun dry and was searching for another mag before the RO stopped me from completely blowing it by firing that final shot. The last hole in the target was, very much, almost the shape of a 1911 pattern pistol. There was a tremendous build up of "filth muck," so much so that with the barrel out of the gun I couldn't force a round into it with my thumb.

I solved the problem with WIN 231. While it fixed the failure-to-RTB problem it still had excessive muzzle flash and while shooting outside into a light breeze I still got sprayed with unburned powder.

I've since switched to Tightgroup (read the Dillon article like everyone else) and I like it. It cost less then 231, and I don't get an unburned powder shower.

In my limited experience HS-6 is the worst and Tightgroup is the best.

[George D]

Cleanest - Winchester Super Target.

We don't get Titegroup or Clays in Australia, but of the powders I have tried (Blue Dot, Red Dot, 231 and WST) the cleanest, and the best performer IMHO, is WST.

[bkeeler]

Clays gets my vote!

bkeeler

[SiG Lady]

TBF--

I've noticed no unpleasant odor (yet) with Clays from either my rounds or fellow shooters'... and during that match with about three dozen people shooting--half of 'em custom loaded with this stuff--you'd notice something or not notice something. All we smelled that night was 'gunpowder'. I dunno, maybe we were already too far gone to know the difference. It was pretty goofy there for about a half-hour...

[George D]

there was certainly a lot of empty cartridge-sniffing goin' on last Tuesday night at League

SiG Lady,

I'm not sure that sniffing empty cartridges is a great idea. A recently fired empty case contains a cocktail of health hazard nasties and is high on the list of contibutors to lead poisoning.

[benos]

At major in a .40, Clays and Vit. 320 are very clean. And so is Tightgroup.

But back the loads down with any of those and your velocity spreads will go all over the place. Correspondingly they're not as clean then as well. JME,

be

[Duane Thomas]

But back the loads down with any of those and your velocity spreads will go all over the place.

be,

Are you sure? Titegroup was specifically designed to have consistent burn characteristics at reduced charge weights in large pistol casings.

[SiG Lady]

GeorgeD--

I was only WATCHING...!

[benos]

But back the loads down with any of those and your velocity spreads will go all over the place.

be,

Are you sure? Titegroup was specifically designed to have consistent burn characteristics at reduced charge weights in large pistol casings.

I know that's how its billed Duane, but I never had any luck with it for light (135 gr @ 1000 fps) loads.

be

[Duane Thomas]

Interesting. What sort of SD have you seen?

[Harmon]

well, not knocking cowboy action shooters, but great accuracy and consistent velocitys arent as important as IPSC .

there is no power factor, low velocity soft shooting...they worry about reliable ignition,

i use clays,. straight clays for my 45 auto major loads...it doesnt smell good, but i really am not shooting for smell.

its about as clean as it gets. tried titegroup with lead bullets, and it wasnt that it was much dirtier than clays, with lead it smoked toooooooooooo much.

it was like hodgdon had an accident packaging and mixed clays with pyrodex....

just for grins, i loaded the 45 auto with pyrodex and a 155 semi wadcutter...it smoked just a little more than titegroup.

clays is the winner for the 45,

U clays for the 40

i dont shoot 38 super

9mm really likes WSF, 4756, power pistol

those are all bout the same cleanliness. U clays works good in the 9 too, but it wasnt as accurate as i liked.

[.40AET]

I have only used WST and N320 for .40 cal. For those of you who think that WST is clean, N320 is even cleaner. I shoot about a 14,000 rounds a year and only clean my gun once a monthly before a match. Pure laziness wins alot, if I have to start cleaning every other week or (gasp) once a week, I would have to search for a new load. I would like to try Titegroup, but not if it is a lot dirtier than N320. I don't wish to go backwards.

For the people who add smell into the formula, I thought that WST smelled awefull, and the N320 smells "like that gasoline smell early in the morning, (sniff) it smells, like victory"

[MoNsTeR]

Cleanest? VV N310, period, end of subject.