Cleats at the Nats - FTDR or no?

[racerba]

Until then it is just a game. If we did that it would still be a game. Keep in mind it has RULES. Real life confrontations have only two rules. Rule #1: There are no rules. Rule #2 Cheat

Sort of...

Rule #2 - Stay Alive

[rubberneck]

Further on the subject of knee pads.

I have a friend that shot the recent nationals. He has VERY bad knees. He usually wears a spandex/stretchy brace on both knees when shooting. (Keep in mind, this is a GAME) so that his knees don't fail him. He shot this match wearing on ly one on his worst knee as he was concerned that the SOs would gig him for "Competition Gear" or visible knee pads.

This is BS. Does he always wear his braces? No, he does not. Why? because ion the couirse of a normal day he doesn't run thru 10 courses of fire, he walks around like most of us do. What would happen if the SHTF? He would react and worry about his knees later. The big difference being that he prize in Real Life is LIFE, in IDPA the prize is a little piece of wood with a few words scratched into a brass plate.

If IDPA wants to be for real tactical training, then lets play using "Simunitions" equipment and shoot at each other, sort of like Paint Ball. Now we can really call cover vs concealment if we change the walls to paper.

Until then it is just a game. If we did that it would still be a game. Keep in mind it has RULES. Real life confrontations have only two rules. Rule #1: There are no rules. Rule #2 Cheat

Jim

IDPA is a sport and like all sports IDPA has rules. Every time a sport draws a line in the sand someone always comes along and complains why the line has to be in that particular spot. 9 times out of 10 the person complaining does so becuase it doesn't suit him personally. IDPA and USPSA for that matter, can't be all things to all people no matter how much you think it should be.

If your friend had taken a second to read the rule book he would have realized that there is only a prohibition on hard knee pads. Soft knee pads are allowable if a competitor has a need for them just as long as they are covered by clothing. If he hwas unsure of the legality of wearing knee braces he should have asked the match director for a ruling before hand. I saw plenty of guys wearing two knee braces. Not one of them was giged for it. It is amazing how flexible match officials can be when you take the time to open your mouth and ask instead of just assuming you can't.

The real problem is that there are too many people holding court on the shortcomings of the IDPA rulebook when they really don't have a clue about the rules and the rationale behind them.

[JThompson]

Further on the subject of knee pads.

I have a friend that shot the recent nationals. He has VERY bad knees. He usually wears a spandex/stretchy brace on both knees when shooting. (Keep in mind, this is a GAME) so that his knees don't fail him. He shot this match wearing on ly one on his worst knee as he was concerned that the SOs would gig him for "Competition Gear" or visible knee pads.

This is BS. Does he always wear his braces? No, he does not. Why? because ion the couirse of a normal day he doesn't run thru 10 courses of fire, he walks around like most of us do. What would happen if the SHTF? He would react and worry about his knees later. The big difference being that he prize in Real Life is LIFE, in IDPA the prize is a little piece of wood with a few words scratched into a brass plate.

If IDPA wants to be for real tactical training, then lets play using "Simunitions" equipment and shoot at each other, sort of like Paint Ball. Now we can really call cover vs concealment if we change the walls to paper.

Until then it is just a game. If we did that it would still be a game. Keep in mind it has RULES. Real life confrontations have only two rules. Rule #1: There are no rules. Rule #2 Cheat

Jim

The real problem is that there are too many people holding court on the shortcomings of the IDPA rulebook when they really don't have a clue about the rules and the rationale behind them.

I don't care what rules they have other than ones that pertain to safety. If it's muddy and/or slippery it's foolish to prohibit something that would make a COF safer for all involved. I'm not looking down at IDPA either... I figure if someone picks up a gun, I'm all with that whether it be a pistol shotgun or a long gun. My primary concern is that rules do not prohibit something that would increase the safety factor. IMHO this rule could do that in certain situations.

Edited October 2, 2007 by JThompson

[rubberneck]

I don't care what rules they have other than ones that pertain to safety. If it's muddy and/or slippery it's foolish to prohibit something that would make a COF safer for all involved. I'm not looking down at IDPA either... I figure if someone picks up a gun, I'm all with that whether it be a pistol shotgun or a long gun. My primary concern is that rules do not prohibit something that would increase the safety factor. IMHO this rule could do that in certain situations.

20 years ago you would have had a point but you don't today. There are enough manufacturers of trail type shoes with really aggressive tread patterns that are the equal of cleats and a suitable for all day wear. I have shot in all sorts of foul weather and run flat on wet grass and mud. I have never once slipped wearing either a pair or Merrill's or the pair of North Face trails shoes I wear now. This is nothing more than people making a mountain out of a mole hill. You can safely shoot this sport in all sorts of conditions wearing a good pair of trail shoes. There is no need whatsoever to wear football cleats. Somehow that doesn't stop people from bringing it up.

[JThompson]

Okay, you know it all and we don't know squat... I'm not qualified to have an opinion. I will, henceforth defer to your superior judgment in these matters. I mean hey, everyone has $100 plus to spend on some specialty kicks when a $20 pair of cleats would work right?

You can shout me down now and have the last word as well.

Edited October 2, 2007 by JThompson

[Nik Habicht]

Time for a cooldown period! Knock off the back and forth bickering ---- If you're primarily a USPSA shooter and don't like a certain rule, send a note to IDPA HQ. None of the IDPA shooters want to hear about it.

[Nik Habicht]

O.K. --- we'll see how this goes. This topic only stays open as long as everyone remains on point and POLITE. Thank you for your anticipated cooperation!

[scirocco38s]

I seem to remeber that cleats were illegal, but I wouldn't care if the guy wore them. If thats what he's comfortable with, have at it. He aint beating you or anyone else because of a pair of cleats. He might psych out somebody with them. If he did wear them and won, it wasnt the shoes. If he didnt win anything then it should be gravy on your roast because it didnt give him the advantage he thought it would. I see people try all sorts of things thinking it will give them an advantage, and most of the time it doesnt. The biggest advantage I have ever had over others is practice. That and a bright Blue magwell on and sti eagle in 38s. All kidding aside we have some older guys that shoot and they wear kneepads to when going to a knee because they have bad knees, I dont say anything about that either because those guys are out there having a good time and shooting, they arent going to win and they only compete against each other for bragging rights and to see who has to buy dinner that night at the local resturant.

[Tindjin]

Cleats I think would be fine as long as you are wearing a full football or soccer uniform.

Otherwise it's just a rule like said in this and other FTDR type threads. The purpose of IDPA is to use "real world/everyday" type gear. Sure you see someone walking down the street in cleats once in a while but it isn't "the norm" and hence not allowed. Same type of thinking as not allowing "race gun" type holsters. Sure you could conceal one wearing a jacket but since the number of people who might do it are way below 1% of those CCW'ing it likewise isn't allowed. Rules are part of the game, don't like them then choose another game to play.

To the comment about a $20 pair of cleats V. $100 pair of hikers, well you can get $20 pair of hikers also. Just saying..

Edited October 4, 2007 by Tindjin

[00bullitt]

As for cleats in IDPA.......I would wear them if allowed in the rules but since they are not it is no big deal. I feel more sure footed in them on differnt terrains but the course design of IDPA doesn't lend itself to long distance movement to grant a ton of advantage. I believe the rule book prohibits more than 10 yards of movement in course design. In USPSA.......movement is a bit more unleashed. It requires long sprints to small shooting boxes/barricades at times and solid control of your footwork is an advantage with cleats in my opinion on most outdoor terrain. Its a rule that I will go either way with. If it was allowed I would wear them,if its not allowed,not a problem. But if it is a rule.....it needs to be enforced equally. Thats not to say that I think all rules make sense. This is one that I just don't have an issue with. As for cleats being worn for safety reasons.....it really depends on what surfaces they are used. On wood decks and boardwalks they could be the opposite of safe in a hurry.

[novafla]

"My wife and I were walking to lunch on Thursday (the day we shot), and we spoke to a shooter who was wearing cleats. Appendix 1.F.2 (page 40) clearly states this is not allowed."

Sorry, but I can't find anywhere in the rule that says you can't wear cleats when going to lunch?

[Joe4d]

If the guy was wondering around he was shooting in them, I dont buy this is my third match crap,, At the Nationals ? give me a break, I dont have a problem with or without cleats, The problem I have is the selective enforcement of rules in IDPA. Match directors, SO's etc need to enforce the rules as written. If a rule is stupid bickering back and forth does nothing, Start a petition, could probably be done here,,, As in Dear IDPA, rule number xyz sucks the undersigned would like it changed to zyx,, then list all the names and IDPA numbers that agree. Overwelming support can fix stuff. But until then the rules as published need to be enforced. No where in the rulebook does it say, "If caught using illegal equipment shooters will be given a warning and allowed to go change" Mr cleat guy obviously all ready shot some stages and should have been given the FTDR. Giving a rule violator a break just penalizes all the people who put the time and effort into following the rules.

[Bob Hostetter]

The rule against cleats I disagree with but as someone else has already stated there are other shoes on the market nowadays that work also as good. However I have shot on ranges that used pea gravel that would have been much safer to run on if cleats were allowed.

The rule against knee pads I also disagree with because, like the cleats, they can help prevent injuries. I don't know that the lack of them goes so far as to become a safety issue, but they do reduce injuries.

Moreover, I can't accept the agrement that we should only use equipment that you would wear on the street because I rarely if ever see people wearing ear plugs or muffs while out in town. Well maybe some of the married ones but they don't count.............

And by the way, some of us that complain about the rules are strong supporters of IDPA, we just didn't drink the Koolaid.............

Edited October 6, 2007 by Bob Hostetter

[Gregg K]

If the guy was wondering around he was shooting in them, I dont buy this is my third match crap,, At the Nationals ? give me a break,

I don't buy the third match stuff either because it's not possible. At minimum he would need to shoot a classifier match and 2 sanctioned matches in the last year to even be able to apply to the Nationals. That's an absolute minimum of 3 previous matches.

[Pigdawg]

How many IDPA shooters (besides myself) went to the store and bought a pair of shoes just to shoot IDPA with. No they were not cleats but they were higher up on my ankle than I normaly wear and I tooked for the tread that I thought would give me the most traction in loose gravel.

Why did I do this? Not to game IDPA to me and I dont mean to bash IDPA but its just practice to me. I want to do as well as I can but I try not to take it to seriously. I bought special shoes for IDPA because I cant wear cleats and at one of the ranges where we shoot IDPA durning a 3 gun match I took off running and slipped on loose gravel and fell VERY hard. kdmoore was the SO and Amed reminds me everytime I shoot now dont fall down. No one was swepted with my AR was kept pointing downrange the entire time but it hurt not just my pride but knee shoulder and back.

I am in complete agreement with Jthompson it is a safety issue at some ranges. Loose gravel and shot brass can make for very bad footing and safety should be above everything else in any game involving firearms.

[Joe4d]

no cleats isnt the safety issue, moving faster than existing conditions is. Same with driving, if the roads are slick slow the heck down. And again it is irellevant the rule is the rule.

[kdmoore]

I don't know that the lack of them goes so far as to become a safety issue, but they do reduce injuries.

Bob, that's a classic, yogi bera couldn't have phrased it better ... reminds me of the saying "safety is no accident". You know what is meant, but he word play is fun.

While I agree that when things get wet, we should slow down. But I'm not advocating getting rid of safety rails on the freeway either. PD isn't the first or last to trip up at a range (it's like he was only thinking of the muzzle of his AR during that fall, it was as good as it could have been and likely made him fall harder without using hands to cushion the blow). Folks are always going to underestimate the traction that mud, gravel, brass, etc gives.

For me, the arguement "you wouldn't wear that in the street" doesn't hold. We are shooting out in fields/woods/etc. Not sidewalks, floors, etc.

I think there are other options that do provide safety, but correct me if I'm wrong. I've actually never worn cleats, I have hiking shoes (I'm a scouting leader, I have 3 or 4 pair in various states of decay!) with soles that give me plenty of traction.

Joed, not every rule is actively enforced. Having not been there, I don't know for sure, but I haven't heard of holster checking (daylight, distance, etc) either for the pistol or mags. I haven't heard whether the guns were weighed. Was there a box this year? (checking gun size). We know the chrono didn't work out (at least they did try tho). Were folks checked to see if firearms/mags were concealed (standing with hands out) and behind one's centerline?. Some of these rules we have to have integrity to enforce upon ourselves.

So, I'm not sure what Ed is asking. I'd guess it is either "should we have checked gear" or "does a cleats violation warrant 20 seconds".

I'm not sure of the intent of the rule (not that it really matters). Given non cleat choices available, I don't think any real advantage is given. Maybe it is to quell the "equipment race" where everyone would feel like they have to buy a pair of cleats if allowed. But, even if they were allowed, I don't see a mad rush of IDPA membership to buy them, they just don't help enough.

Maybe the guy opened his closet that morning, was looking at 10 pairs of wingtips, dock siders, sandals, etc. The only shoes with any traction were his golf shoes ... ?

Funniest line of this thread was allowing them if full football gear is also worn. Given the requirement for LEO to wear full gear, I suspect that we'll start looking like the village people if we go down this path ... lololol.

[COF]

KD, I can tell you that folks were checked for equipment. On our bay, we checked the first squad in the morning/afternoon and randomly throughout the match. I'm sure other folks were checking as well. There was one stage that started with the gun in the IDPA box so that was there. To my knowledge there wasn't a scale and the chrono was going TU so much they didn't use it.

Jerry

[Singlestack Wonder]

no cleats isnt the safety issue, moving faster than existing conditions is. Same with driving, if the roads are slick slow the heck down. And again it is irellevant the rule is the rule.

+10

No cleats is the rule no matter what rationalization anyone has. If the range is muddy, EVERYONE must slow down. Safety is not the issue here so please don't try to make your argument to not abide by the rules based on that.

In other sports, I cannot have a magazine that extends beyond 170mm for open raceguns yet I don't complain that I cannot have a 175mm mag AS IT IS AGAINST THE RULES.

[kdmoore]

KD, I can tell you that folks were checked for equipment. On our bay, we checked the first squad in the morning/afternoon and randomly throughout the match. I'm sure other folks were checking as well. There was one stage that started with the gun in the IDPA box so that was there. To my knowledge there wasn't a scale and the chrono was going TU so much they didn't use it.

Jerry

Good to hear.

BTW, I just checked the results, VA was second only to PA in participant number .... WAY TO REPRESENT!!!

[9x45]

Bob's talking about me 'I rarely if ever see people wearing ear plugs or muffs while out in town. Well maybe some of the married ones but they don't count............. ' That's why I have 'Yes, dear...' tattoed on my forearms. However when we used to run big IDPA matches, (state and regional) I would specifically allow cleats and knee/elbow pads (stated in the rules on the flyer) at the ranges we operated out of because of the terrain. Most SoCal ranges are built on pretty rough stuff, especially Palm Springs, a former dump site. Even though it goes against the IDPA rules, the match director has to consider the safety of the shooters and the liablity against the club officers, RO's and promoters. Nobody complained about this rule, but then nobody complained about the $10,000 prizes either(not really, just plaques but the fine print says 'Estimated Perceived Value is $10,000).

My gripe is those completely phony baloney photographers concealment vests! Come on, have you ever in your life seen anyone wear that on the street? At least real photographers have a bunch of cameras and crap hanging all over them and couldn't get a gun out even if they had one... And to think some shooters would buy and wear these just to gain an edge from the draw. Why that goes against the very spiritual core of IDPA! I allways wear a Hawaiin shirt, blue jeans, semi hiking books, same as what I wear to work everyday (not the same shirt). The only difference is a sun hat, prescreption shooting glasses and electric hears.

In with cleats and pads, out with phony mesh vests and 'practical/tactical sequentially prioritized 27 pocket pants'

[Jaxshooter]

Just throw the rule book out and make up the rules as you shoot. It is either allowed or not according to the rules.

[Joe4d]

Just throw the rule book out and make up the rules as you shoot. It is either allowed or not according to the rules.

No kidding , Cleats at the Nats- FTDR or no ? was the original pots (we could have done without the or no ending, I hate extra crutch words added to the end of sentences but that's another post)

The answer is yes a FTDR and any match official that noticed it and didnt give the penalty should have their credintials revoked. It is not up to any individual to decide what rule is enforced and what rule isnt, your agreement to the rule is irrelevant. When you agree to host, direct or SO an IDPA match you agree to do that according to the rules as published, if your not gonna do that do the sport a favor and dont host direct or SO a match. That seems to be the biggest problem with IDPA, independant match directors making up there own rules and selectivly enforcing others. That is what gives IDPA a non professional, hacked together, Bubba shooting sport reputation and image.

If you dont like a rule campaign to HQ to get it changed, I would even support a change to cleats or kneepads, but the rule is the rule,

I really like IDPA but this kinda crap needs to stop.

[Chills1994]

kdmoore wrote:

Joed, not every rule is actively enforced. Having not been there, I don't know for sure, but I haven't heard of holster checking (daylight, distance, etc) either for the pistol or mags. I haven't heard whether the guns were weighed. Was there a box this year? (checking gun size). We know the chrono didn't work out (at least they did try tho). Were folks checked to see if firearms/mags were concealed (standing with hands out) and behind one's centerline?. Some of these rules we have to have integrity to enforce upon ourselves.

Stage 9, Bay 5, there was an IDPA box that the gun started in, lid closed.

Our crew of SO's on that Bay (again Stage 9, and stage 8) did an equipment check on every squad that came through. Yes, that included doing the "scarecrow maneuver" too to check for the length of concealment garment. Yes some holsters didn't meet the "light tunnel" requirement, but our CSO was cool about it and let them run up to the vendor area and buy a new holster that did meet the "light" tunnel" requirement. Then they shot with that. Better that he gave the competitor the benefit of the doubt instead of issuing an FTDR. Again, which, I thought was cool and a good example of the amount of lee-way SO's are given.

Joe4D wrote:

The answer is yes a FTDR and any match official that noticed it and didnt give the penalty should have their credintials revoked. It is not up to any individual to decide what rule is enforced and what rule isnt, your agreement to the rule is irrelevant. When you agree to host, direct or SO an IDPA match you agree to do that according to the rules as published, if your not gonna do that do the sport a favor and dont host direct or SO a match. That seems to be the biggest problem with IDPA, independant match directors making up there own rules and selectivly enforcing others. That is what gives IDPA a non professional, hacked together, Bubba shooting sport reputation and image.

If you dont like a rule campaign to HQ to get it changed, I would even support a change to cleats or kneepads, but the rule is the rule,

I really like IDPA but this kinda crap needs to stop.

Wow! Just wow! I feel this thread is going to get locked down again very soon.

A Bubba shooting sport, really?

Joe4D, dude! Read the rule book! Kneepads are allowed, they just have to be under the pants leg and the not the super visible "I'm here to lay ceramic tile" kind of knee pads. I think some company does make pants with a pocket in the knee in which a plastic shell can be slid into place. Those are allowed.

Joe4D and others who think that IDPA could be/should be run as a tighter ship, here is my WARNING: be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

Just speculating here, but you could see some very militant treat you like children and herd you through a match like cattle type procedures at future major IDPA matches. Stand in line here, wait for the MD and only the MD to check yours and everyone else's equipment one at a time. Then weigh your gun. Then box your gun. Then go to the chrono. Then expect your ammo to be randomly drawn at least once during the match and sent to the chrono at least one more time. Guess what happens when the chrono'ed samples don't jive up power factor-wise. Doh!

Oh yeah, and your shoes get inspected too.

Doesn't sound like much fun to me.

As far as issuing an FTDR for the guy who wore cleats, jeeesh people! IDPA, et al, caught enough flak for the one and only FTDR that got handed out for round dumping at this year's Nat's.

You can't have it both ways folks. You all b$tch about the one FTDR that was appropriately handed out, and then gripe some more about when an FTDR isn't handed out, then go on to bash the IDPA rulebook.

It's not a perfect system. It never will be.

(edited to add this: if you are gamer/cheater and you come to a major match like Nat's, don't be surprised if one of your squadmates covertly snitches you out, especially if you are shooting it over the course of two days. It's real obvious who the SO's are when they come through the hotel lobby at the end of the day. No, I don't like the "snitch-i-ness" aspect of it, but word about you and your equipment will quickly spread to the SO's on the stages/bays you haven't shot yet. Just a word to the wise. Sad, very sad that it comes down to that, but I figured I'd give you all a head's up ahead of time.)

Edited October 28, 2007 by Chills1994

[et45]

In the last issue of the Tactical Journal Robert Ray states that Bill Wilson told him the rule book was "flexible".Ray goes on to say that is the opinion he teaches in his SO classes.He also talks about a discussion he had with a student who disagreed with him saying the student thought the rule book should be enforced to the letter.