Production vs. Limited 10

[JasonK]

I've been watching the debate about the three pound trigger rule for Production. I'm curious what the membership thinks the differences are between the concepts for Production and Limited 10. Obviously, the holsters and gear are different. I'm really asking only about the guns themselves. Please limit the debate to just the guns. Are the practical distinctions between most guns in these divisions really that dissimilar?

[Chris Keen]

Interesting topic ...... I see most folks who shoot L-10 use mainly a 'Production' style gun chambered in .40 instead of the proto-typical 9mm that runs the roost in Prod. So you see your Glocks, and XD's, M&P's, H&K's, etc. However an occasional S_I will slip in now and again, but they usually dominate in Limited.

[ima45dv8]

As far as the conceptual differences, I think the exclusion of single-action pistols, and the equipment placement restrictions in Production are the most glaring differences. That and the Minor-only scoring in Production. I like both divisions and, despite both being limited to 10 rounds, find them to be different enough that I don't feel like I'm shooting the same game in 2 different divisions.

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As this isn't really a "rules" question, I moved this thread here to the USPSA/IPSC Shooting forum.

[Joe4d]

guess it depends on where you shoot, Limited 10 is pretty much dominated by full race wide body 1911's. The ocasional new, or the guys having fun getting trigger time shoot the production style guns. Course I shoot in the 10 round land PRHI

[Sunuva]

I think it’s mainly the caliber or power factor.

I tell the new shooters at our club for the most part if they have a 9mm and enough mags to shoot production, 40cal or above L-10

If they don’t have enough mags go limited.

And I shoot a Glock 35 in L-10.

[ipscbob]

guess it depends on where you shoot, Limited 10 is pretty much dominated by full race wide body 1911's. The ocasional new, or the guys having fun getting trigger time shoot the production style guns. Course I shoot in the 10 round land PRHI

Here in Cali, L10 is clearly dominated by single stacks. There are a few widebodies but they are in the minority.

[ima45dv8]

guess it depends on where you shoot, Limited 10 is pretty much dominated by full race wide body 1911's. The ocasional new, or the guys having fun getting trigger time shoot the production style guns. Course I shoot in the 10 round land PRHI

Here in GA Lim10 is clearly dominated by SS pistols. I haven't shot it in a while, but I welcomed wide-body guns to venture over into L10.

It may be different elsewhere, though.

[Viggen]

]guess it depends on where you shoot, Limited 10 is pretty much dominated by full race wide body 1911's. The ocasional new, or the guys having fun getting trigger time shoot the production style guns. Course I shoot in the 10 round land

Here in Cali, L10 is clearly dominated by single stacks. There are a few widebodies but they are in the minority.

In central AZ L10 is dominated by single stacks, with some Glocks, and toss in the occasional S_I.

[Heavy Metal Only]

I shoot L-10 and sometimes think I might have better luck in production.

[Jack Suber]

I have been shooting L10 for the last 2 years. I use an STI Edge 40. I have switched to Production for the Nationals (an M&P 9mm). I can tell you there is a heck of a difference. Learning to time the Production gun is much different that the single action STI. RELOADS! Not having a magwell makes a heck of a difference. Now, I really am looking at the magwell. Finally, as mentioned before, shooting minor makes it a lot harder, in my opinion. In production, you can afford "C's" and "D's".

[ima45dv8]

I have been shooting L10 for the last 2 years. I use an STI Edge 40. I have switched to Production for the Nationals (an M&P 9mm). I can tell you there is a heck of a difference. Learning to time the Production gun is much different that the single action STI. RELOADS! Not having a magwell makes a heck of a difference. Now, I really am looking at the magwell. Finally, as mentioned before, shooting minor makes it a lot harder, in my opinion. In production, you can afford "C's" and "D's".

Thanks for the reminder, Jack. The prohibition for add-on magwells in Production is a point I missed.

A big factor, all else being equal.

I know a lot of folks say it doesn't/shouldn't matter, but when transitioning from a division where they are allowed, it's big!

[SA Friday]

I'm primarily a production shooter with a Glock 34, but I wanted to shoot limited too. I quickly figured out it was easier for me to shoot L-10 instead of limited with my Glock 24 for me. I kept having to stop myself from reloading while shooting limited. Every time I moved, I was dropping a 3/4 full mag and shoving another one in the gun . So, I moved over to L-10. The way you breakdown and shoot stages with 10 rounds is pretty much the same.

Magwell and mag length are huge advantages IMO. I practice my reloads a lot, and the reload with my production gun vs my lim/l-10 gun is very different. The longer mag makes it a lot easier to get my index finger out of the way during reloading, and therefore faster. The magwell lets me be less accurate with the mag too. I can get away with a little slop, and can therefore push the speed of the reload.

Another factor is the mag release button on my G24 is a JP mag button, much better than the stock extended release. There are other thing one can do to a Lim gun that they cannot to a production gun too: 6" slide and barrel, grip stippling,

[38superman]

Okay, you asked us to confine our answers to the differences in the guns typically used in these divisions.

I will do my best to comply.

The guns we shoot in any division are a function of what works best under a specific set of rules.

Change the rules slightly and you can radically change the nature of the division.

For example:

The only difference between Limited and L10 is the 10 round restriction.

The result is that you see a lot of folks shooting the 45 in L10 but hardly anyone shoots a 45 in Limited where the bigger caliber would reduce the round count.

The rules of the production division tend to steer most shooters into 9mm polymer pistols.

There are other double action pistols such as the S&W 5906 and Para LDA's, but the division is ruled by Glocks and XDs.

Limited 10 is far more inclusive in the type of handgun.

Almost any gun you can dig up (short of a full race gun) is legal so L10 shooters may have almost anything in the holster.

"Are the practical distinctions between most guns in these divisions really that dissimilar?"

Yes

Production shooters typically shoot lighter guns with less recoil, heavier triggers and longer trigger pull / reset.

L10 shooters (mostly) shoot heavier 1911/2011 guns with higher power factors thus greater recoil, light / fast single action triggers, mag wells etc.

Tony

Edited July 26, 2007 by 38superman

[Mick]

I shot L10 for several years at the TX LTD with a .40 SV and just loaded down to 10 round in my 140mm mags. Other guns were there but were not as competitive as a wide body with download mags.

It's a good place for folks to jump in with major caliber 1911s or "other" guns but the SV/STI guns will dominate unless you find a good Glock driver or two like we have here in the Dallas/FTW area.

[Flexmoney]

Interesting topic ...... I see most folks who shoot L-10 use mainly a 'Production' style gun chambered in .40 instead of the proto-typical 9mm that runs the roost in Prod. So you see your Glocks, and XD's, M&P's, H&K's, etc. However an occasional S_I will slip in now and again, but they usually dominate in Limited.

I agree. That does seem to be the norm...especially in out area.

Those are often, it seems, the shooters that don't yet reload. So, they are shooting factory 40...and their guns hold anywhere from 12-15 rounds (not really competitive in Limited). Limited-10 is the perfect home for these shooters. It seems a lot of them stay in L-10 if/when they start reloading.

[38superman]

Interesting topic ...... I see most folks who shoot L-10 use mainly a 'Production' style gun chambered in .40 instead of the proto-typical 9mm that runs the roost in Prod. So you see your Glocks, and XD's, M&P's, H&K's, etc. However an occasional S_I will slip in now and again, but they usually dominate in Limited.

I agree. That does seem to be the norm...especially in out area.

Those are often, it seems, the shooters that don't yet reload. So, they are shooting factory 40...and their guns hold anywhere from 12-15 rounds (not really competitive in Limited). Limited-10 is the perfect home for these shooters. It seems a lot of them stay in L-10 if/when they start reloading.

Interesting.

Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me that most L10 shooters are carrying 1911/2011 type guns in our area.

There certainly are some folks with "Production" double action style guns but they are not as prevalent.

USPSA typically polls shooters at the nationals and publishes trends in guns and gear in Front Sight.

Someone refresh my memory.

What was the dominant gun platform in L10 for the last published result?

Tony

Edited July 26, 2007 by 38superman

[Flexmoney]

I'm really asking only about the guns themselves. Please limit the debate to just the guns. Are the practical distinctions between most guns in these divisions really that dissimilar?

Nah...I don't think there is all that much difference (of course, I shot a production legal Glock35 in Limited forever).

- Magwells. Everybody wants one. Production shooters can't have one. (Look the mags in, folks. )

- External modifications to the gun...not that big of a deal.

- Single-action vs. double action triggers. For the experienced shooters, not a big deal. Newer shooters need all the help they can get on trigger control.

- Major vs. Minor power factor scoring. HUGE.

- Gun weight. Most of the production guns are lighter, as they need to stay within 2oz of stock. Whether a lighter gun is better or worse is probably a personal choice.

I've shot local, non-affiliated, matches that started out as Limited-8. The guns didn't matter. Competition-wise, 8 rounds is where it's at. You don't get the extra make-up shots and the ability to reload with one in the pipe (and a LOT of S_I guns won't run with mags that empty). 8 would make a shooter need to be more accurate...to avoide extra reloads and/or standing reloads. But, it's tough. Probably too tough to be real popular. Shooters clamour for more rounds.

[boo radley]

Hmmm...in NC, from what I've noticed, I would *guess* that L10 is still predominantly (maybe 60%?) 1911, with another 20% Glocks, and the remaining 20% 2011's and "other" -- XD's, etc. I do think the provisional SSD has bled off a few die-hard 1911 shooters, but that's neither here nor there.

It does seem a catch-all, too, for folks that have non-1911's, but chambered in .40 or .45.

[driver8M3]

while production has lots of rules, the 2 things that really differentiate it from the other divisions are the 10-round limit, and minor scoring. both really affect scores and overall placement. all the other stuff...double action only, equipment behind the hip, holster limitations, no external mods, etc...they just take some getting used to. and once your accustomed to them, they don't really impact scores much at all. so the only effective difference i see between L10 and production is the major/minor scoring difference.

i'm pretty sure that you could let me use a real limited gun in production (following only the 10-round limit and minor scoring), and my scores/placement wouldn't change. but if you let me ignore the 10-round limit or shoot major (while everyone else plays by the normal rules), my scores and placement would probably improve.

[LPatterson]

You started by asking about the conceptial differences between Production & L10 but wanted the answers limited to guns only. Thats like asking someone if they are still beating their wife, there is no correct answer unless they really do. The production concept was to bring 9MM Double Action guns into competition, like Rugers, Smiths, SIGs & Berettas but included Glocks & then XDs which is sort of an apples & oranges comparison. The problem with Production is that not enough thought was included in the concept process. I would have included an external hammer requirement knowing the board would shot it down because it would eliminate the Glock which is a gun sold to a majority of Law Enforcement agencies. The XD should have never been included because it is not a double action & was banned by IPSC on barrel length (5.1) when it should have been banned because ATFE listed it as a single action type gun.

I see several Glocks used in L10 because it is a cheaper platform than a tuned 1911/2011, which in most cases they have to be to complete a match without several jams. Production Glocks other than 9MM are usually used by people in my area because they want to shoot a different division that day & not because they are planning to win the division. The minor scoring means there is a lot less shooting on the move unless you really don't care what your score might be. I shoot all divisions and make the decision which to shoot based on the laws of probability, I flip a coin.

[Scoterbeast]

I've been watching the debate about the three pound trigger rule for Production. I'm curious what the membership thinks the differences are between the concepts for Production and Limited 10. Obviously, the holsters and gear are different. I'm really asking only about the guns themselves. Please limit the debate to just the guns. Are the practical distinctions between most guns in these divisions really that dissimilar?

Flexmoney makes a very valid point in that MANY 2011 platforms have a problem if you run the magazine dry. In the game we play, reliability is paramount. Bullets gotta go downrange when you pull the trigger and the empty has to extract properly for you to be competetive in any class. Make sure your limited gun is up to the task if you use it for limited 10.

[ipscbob]

(and a LOT of S_I guns won't run with mags that empty).

Huh? All of ours run just fine to empty. Please explain what you mean.

[Flexmoney]

Many of the S_I guns that come to USPSA shooters jam on the last or next to last round out of the magazine.

They just aren't tuned to run to empty.

If we were shooting 8 rounds in the gun, on 8 round arrays, we'd see all kinds of jams...until the shooters had to get with the gunsmiths to address the issue. (Which shooters from Canada likley have already done.)

[Loves2Shoot]

The XD should have never been included because it is not a double action & was banned by IPSC on barrel length (5.1) when it should have been banned because ATFE listed it as a single action type gun.

BUT...

Once they let the striker fired Glock in (NOT a DA), keeping other striker fired guns (like the XD) would make even less sense. Stirker fired guns can be made almost as nice as SA guns.

I think that action (SA versus DA) is antiquated thinking and not a very good basis for category divisions. I know folks want to keep 1911's out of production but it doesn't even really make any sense to me when you can get great 1911's at the same price point.

But what do I know, I think progress is a good thing, and that seems runs against a lot of the thinking that runs USPSA.

[steel1212]

The XD should have never been included because it is not a double action & was banned by IPSC on barrel length (5.1) when it should have been banned because ATFE listed it as a single action type gun.

BUT...

Once they let the striker fired Glock in (NOT a DA), keeping other striker fired guns (like the XD) would make even less sense. Stirker fired guns can be made almost as nice as SA guns.

I think that action (SA versus DA) is antiquated thinking and not a very good basis for category divisions. I know folks want to keep 1911's out of production but it doesn't even really make any sense to me when you can get great 1911's at the same price point.

But what do I know, I think progress is a good thing, and that seems runs against a lot of the thinking that runs USPSA.

When is that excuse ever going to end? I mean I TOTALLY believe that production should be the land of TRUE double action guns like the beretta and sigs BUT the powers that be let in the glock and the MP and the XD which are stricker fired guns. if you want to say you got beat because an XD is a Single action gun and your Glock isn't then that is just a sorry excuse.

Anyway back on topic, around here we have both. We have a couple of local clubs that have 2 runs at the same stages and if somebody shoots limited they more than likely just down load to 10 and shoot L10. The newer guys with 40s like XDs, MP, Glocks ect also shoot L10 and the 9mm guys shoot production. A few will venture into Limited if they don't want to reload as much or don't have the mags to do so. I would say at the 2 matches that have 2 runs about 50/50 wide bodies for Limited/L10. At the others its typically 1911s with 10 rounders or the newer guys shooting what they got

Edited July 28, 2007 by steel1212