Should you take the disappearing targets, or leave them ?

[Flexmoney]

In an experiment, I decided to not engage the two dp's of the match.

...I can see now that I gave you way to many points on the stages not to shoot at my drop turners, next time I will make sure that its worth your time to shoot them.

Let's look at the math...

(Minor power factor)

Stage 2 The Yugo

6.4748 hf

( 1 / 6.4748 = 0.154 )

Each point was worth 0.154 seconds. At 5 points per Alpha, that equates to 0.77 seconds per shot. Two Alphas on a target make that target worth 1.54 seconds at this hit factor...assuming two Alphas.

If you could have got the two Alphas in less than 1.5s, then it should have been worth it to take the target. (You'd be able to do it in half that time.) Even at 6 points for the target (2 Chalies, Or Alpha-Delta @ Minor pf)), you'd be ahead if you did it in .9s or better.

Stage 3 Breakout

5.7126 hf

( 1 / 5.7126 = 0.175 )

Each point was worth 0.175 seconds. At 5 points per Alpha, that equates to 0.875 seconds per shot. Two Alphas on a target make that target worth 1.75 seconds at this hit factor.

'Stage Designer', don't worry about how many points are on the stages you design...just get a feel for the hit factors. The hit factors need to come in pretty high to make it worth skipping the disapperaing targets. On field courses, because of all the movement and non-shooting stuff going on, the DT are almost always worth taking.

So, how high does the hit factor need to be before a shooter should consider skipping the DT ?

That depends on the shooter. Let's assume that I can transition into a target in 0.50 seconds, and that I can hit the split in 0.25 seconds. That totals 0.75 seconds for that target.

At a 13 hf, each point is worth 0.077 seconds ( 1 / 13 = 0.0769 ) . 10pts for two Alphas is worth 0.77 seconds.

If I just expect to collect 8 of the 10 points on the target (Alpha/Charlie, for Minor pf) in my given transition and split time (we said that might take 0.75 seconds), a 10.6 hf would be the break even point.

At 6pts collected (2 Charlie for Minor pf), then hit factor could be at 8 and the target would still be worth taking.

Stage designers...were do you see the really high hit factors? On what type of stages do they show up? Often, it is the speed shoots, or stages with little movement...and/or lots of constant shooting. Just don't stick a DT down a hallway and around a corner all by itself and you should be fine.

[dirtypool40]

Exactly, just like making me change positions for one popper or plate, or run another 10y for one final contact target.

Make it worth my while to shoot the thing and I will. Look at it this way; Do you want to PUNISH a shooter who shoots the stage the way YOU INTENDED???

BAD stage design tries to force you to do something, good stage description flows and "encourages" or "tempts" you to do something, and offers you options.

The kind of stuff that factors out as a "better to leave it" is one of the things that made it easy to attack IPSC back fifteen years ago. I remember reading an article about how the whole super squad factored it out that it was better not to even shoot at a long target in a hoser stage, and so the entire squad passed it up. That was before I ever shot a match but I can remember it turning me off.

Edited June 18, 2007 by dirtypool40

[Micah]

Thanks for the breakdown Flex! This is an excellent visual on the value of dp's.

[A-shot]

Not shooting at a target is lame, the stage design NEEDS to make it worthwhile to get all the points. If the hit factor determines the target CAN be ignored, that taget should NOT be there. It's a game, but the paper has to die. Sorry for a bit of thread drift, I just know where dirtypool is comin' from.

Edited June 18, 2007 by A-shot

[SouthpawG26]

It's a game, but the paper has to die.

Well, sorry for another thread dift then, but A-shot, that's just classic. I'm adding this to my signature

[mscott]

I had just been going over a couple of those I encountered this weekend. I skipped the first on because it was activated along with a clam shell, which I shot 2A on, and taking the additional shots would have brought me to the end of my mag capacity. There were 4 poppers to be shot afterwards and I didn't want to chance a miss or 2 and end up with a standing reload. I know, don't miss. The second one was tied to a popper that was real slow to fall. The stage was to turn and shoot 3 forward falling poppers and a DT. My time was 4.07 shooting the DT. My time without the DT would have been 2.8 seconds. I wondered at the time if it was worthwhile, but after doing the math when I got home it was good to shoot the DT.

[Sunuva]

Thanks for the insight Flex,

This will help me on all my stage design; you have given me a new way to look at it.

Thanks

[dcarter]

Man, I knew I should have paid more attention in math class.

[Micah]

Last weekend at the IN Sectionals, there was a dp and I went after it with the mindset "I'm shooting L10 minor, so I really need every point!"

It wasn't until the ride home that it hit me: Our scores are points/time. No matter what division or power factor you are shooting, you NEED to get the highest number of points possible! If you are already there, and you have the rounds, blast that sucker and get your 10 points!

[Flexmoney]

Right on

Every target, no matter if it disappears or not, has a certain amount of available (and likely) points for the shooter to collect. Every target takes a certain amount of time to transition to (and shoot a split on, for most paper).

Points per second = hit factor

[gino_aki]

Depends on the stage and the points involved vs. the time it'll take ME to shoot them. If I can take them as part of my stage plan "flow" sure I'll pop 'em but if not I'll always blow right by. I'll also blow by 'em if I've had a screw-up earlier in the stage.

[CDRODA396]

Ahhh, I remember when it was just a game and you shot everything, everytime....to be a D Class shooter again!!!

[Sunuva]

Ahhh, I remember when it was just a game and you shot everything, everytime....to be a D Class shooter again!!!

To me gaming the stage is part of "just the game" and its one of the parts I love, and I think that’s why a lot of us shoot this kind of sport opposed to other shooting sports.

[AikiDale]

Man, I knew I should have paid more attention in math class.

Me too. Now I'm not smart enough to deliberately miss a target.

[tgibson]

Ahhh, I remember when it was just a game and you shot everything, everytime....to be a D Class shooter again!!!

To me gaming the stage is part of "just the game" and its one of the parts I love, and I think that’s why a lot of us shoot this kind of sport opposed to other shooting sports.

I totally agree! When I want to go and shoot the same exact COF as everyone else to really test my shooting skills only, I shoot IDPA. When I shoot USPSA I get to test my stage tactics/gaming as well as shooting. That is almost my favorite part. I love it when I get an awsome gameplan put together and shoot it well. It is really satisfying when you beat everyone that shot it the "normal" way. I LOVE THIS SPORT!!!!

TG

[professor]

Ahhh, I remember when it was just a game and you shot everything, everytime....to be a D Class shooter again!!!

To me gaming the stage is part of "just the game" and its one of the parts I love, and I think that’s why a lot of us shoot this kind of sport opposed to other shooting sports.

I totally agree! When I want to go and shoot the same exact COF as everyone else to really test my shooting skills only, I shoot IDPA. When I shoot USPSA I get to test my stage tactics/gaming as well as shooting. That is almost my favorite part. I love it when I get an awsome gameplan put together and shoot it well. It is really satisfying when you beat everyone that shot it the "normal" way. I LOVE THIS SPORT!!!!

TG

When you're looking at the time associated with a shot or two, that time also depends on your equipment/division. As a revolver shooter, it comes down to whether the extra shots will require me to do an extra reload or not, more than my indexing time and per-shot time.

What I'm doing is figuring the incremental HF associated with engaging that target/target array, and deciding my course of action accordingly.

Example: I reach a shooting position with a full moonclip [6 shots]. The available targets are: 1 6" plate, 2 static paper, 1 activator popper, 1 disappearing drop turner. So, my plan of attack is to shoot the plate, 2 static paper, and popper, then book it for the next shooting position. My reasoning is that in order to engage the drop turner, I need to do a standing reload at some point. My reloads take 2.5 - 3 seconds, so those two unnecessary shots on the drop turner mean 2.5 - 3.0 seconds plus .5 indexing to the turner plus .22 sec btwn shot 1 and 2, for a total of 3.22 to 3.72 sec to gain 10 points max. The HF associated with engaging the DT is 2.7 to 3.1, and barring total screwups in the COF, I'm looking at HFs of 3.5 to 5.5 on field courses. So engaging the DT will lower my HF for the stage. Barring screwups.

Now, that's the plan. If, in execution of the plan, I miss that first plate, or I have to make up a shot on one of the static paper, or I miss the activator, then I HAVE to do a reload in order to make the required 6 hits in the array. So, I'll do a reload, get the activating popper and as many static paper as possible while the DT is activating, and drill the DT too.

Regardless, I'm reloading on the way to the next shooting location, to get there with a full moonclip ready to go again.

Class C and D shooters should have a plan of action and try to stick to it, reloading as necessary to maintain the plan. Class B and above should have a plan of action, and have backup plans worked out in advance if such and such happens. Like, "What do I do if I miss the popper that can only be seen from this location? Can I leave a paper target that I'll be able to pick up from another location when I've got the bullets to handle that without doing a standing reload?"

[vluc]

Having run 135+ shooters at the Western PA Sectional at Stage 7 (2 disappearing drop turners), I was surprised by how few chose NOT to take the targets.

Regardless of their plan for either of the two turners, many shooters were waiting on the turners due to the plan they chose, which in many cases was to shoot the activators then go to the DT. Not the best idea from what I saw as there was plenty of time to take other targets.

On the first DT, the better plan seemed to be Activator, steel, plate, paper (if really fast), DT, then remaining steel or paper depending.

The 2nd array posed a different challenge. You approached a visible target, then at the barricade end/fault line could see another paper, plate, activator, DT. Once again, many took the visible paper, then went paper, plate, activator, DT. Again, for many of the bigger dogs, they either shot or bypassed the visible paper coming in, took activator, plate, paper, DT, then visible paper if not done earlier.

Regardless, lots of waiting. I should have logged how long they waited. Would have been an interesting study.

[ChrisStock]

Ahhh, I remember when it was just a game and you shot everything, everytime....to be a D Class shooter again!!!

I'm still new, and wear a "D" badge still

If I don't have to wait more than a second or so for the DT, I'll take it. If it's at the end of the stage in an array, I have been know to sling 3 or 4 pieces of lead in a second or so to grab the points and end the stage.

[Skywalker]

I learned a long time ago, from Benos book, that you can reverse the HF calculation to show you how much time is a single point worth.

E.G. if a 16 rounds medium course can be shot in 12 seconds (time according to your skill), and you think you might be able to drop only a couple of points, 12/78=.15 seconds is the average time it takes you to score each point.

Lets apply this to a stage with 7 static targets, 2 steel and 1 DT.

If you know you can shoot this stage in 12 seconds (not shooting the DT), you know that each A on the DT is worth .75 seconds and each C is worth .60.

At this point, you have only to do the math: if you can shoot an A-C on the DT faster than .75+.60= 1.35seconds (including waiting for the DT to appear, moving to a different shooting position, etc.), then you know if it's worth shooting it or not.

[lcs]

Having run 135+ shooters at the Western PA Sectional at Stage 7 (2 disappearing drop turners), I was surprised by how few chose NOT to take the targets.

Regardless of their plan for either of the two turners, many shooters were waiting on the turners due to the plan they chose, which in many cases was to shoot the activators then go to the DT. Not the best idea from what I saw as there was plenty of time to take other targets.

On the first DT, the better plan seemed to be Activator, steel, plate, paper (if really fast), DT, then remaining steel or paper depending.

The 2nd array posed a different challenge. You approached a visible target, then at the barricade end/fault line could see another paper, plate, activator, DT. Once again, many took the visible paper, then went paper, plate, activator, DT. Again, for many of the bigger dogs, they either shot or bypassed the visible paper coming in, took activator, plate, paper, DT, then visible paper if not done earlier.

Regardless, lots of waiting. I should have logged how long they waited. Would have been an interesting study.

When I first started this sport two years ago I had no idea what a DT was and then I saw a couple and did exactly what you said "I shot the activator and waited". I lucked out one match and got on a squad with a GM production shooter and watched him shoot the activator and then shoot two other paper targets before shooting the DT and still score two As on the DT. I thought, "damn may be I can do that". I tried (D limited shooter) and got one shot on the DT nailing both paper targets first and was thrilled having no idea I could shoot that fast.

My "observation" is without some kind of "input/training" most of us have no idea how to shoot the more complicated courses.

[Blueridge]

Well I shoot revolver, so I take into consideration how many reloads that I will have to do on a stage. I prefer to shoot at all of the targets, but if passing up a DT after activation can reduce my number of reloads I will. The points that I may get from the DT will likely not make up for the time it takes for another reload (about 3-4 seconds for me).

I learned this the hard way at the NC Sectionals this month. I was so focused on getting the shots off on the DT, that I cost myself time and ruined the way that I planned to shoot the stage. Had I activated and left the DT alone, I would have saved around 10 seconds or more on my time.

The explanation given above by Flexmoney works fine, but mainly for auto shooters in my opinion. When you toss round count out and reloads of the equation it makes total sense. In a 24 round course I have to reload three times (barring no misses), while an auto shooter only two (and Open possibly none at all). My point being that round count can play a part in the decision to engage a DT or not.

I hope that made sense.

Edited October 21, 2007 by Blueridge

[Jake Di Vita]

The longer it takes you to complete a stage, the more important points become.

If it takes you 50 seconds to shoot a 150 point stage, each point is then worth 3 seconds - making a single Alpha worth 9 seconds more than a Delta and 15 seconds more than a NPM.

[driver8M3]

If it takes you 50 seconds to shoot a 150 point stage, each point is then worth 3 seconds...

i don't think that came out right jake...

[Jake Di Vita]

In what way?

[driver8M3]

In what way?

if each point is worth 3 seconds...it will take you 450 seconds to complete the stage...

150 points in 50 seconds = 3 points per second = 1 point per 1/3 of a second.