Single Stack Division

[Supershooter]

I think the beauty of the Single Stack Classic (before USPSA involvement) was that a shooter competed with TGO with virtually the same equipment and could really measure himself/herself against the best.

Curious, what has changed since the USPSA involvement with the SSC that this does not happen anymore?

Alan

To tell you the truth other then a few minor rule differences I haven't noticed much of a change. The one thing I have noticed though is that we have more DQ's now then we did before USPSA was involved. Guess that some of the shooters are pushing more and riding the edge of their ability and control.

[Flexmoney]

Actually, no. There would be one National Championship with all categories represented...

So...everybody would be competing against the Open guns? Robbie is going to need one hell of a single-stack.

Off we'd go again with the you gotta have a $4000 gun to compete rhetoric in all the gun rags and such.

...though the end result could look very similar if not the same.

That was my point. If you just jockey the names around...nothing is different.

[Alan Meek]

pushing more and riding the edge of their ability and control.

Ahhh, the true byproduct of cocmpetition.

Alan

Edited May 29, 2007 by Alan Meek

[buddy_fuentes]

First off let me say thanks to Gary and the other BOD for doing a thankless job. Trying to make our sport grow and still keep it interesting for the members. Growth will save our sport and secure our guns from the politicians and gun grabbers.

Some folks only see their side of the fence. In their world everyone must drive a BMW, no exceptions. That's alright, too. That is just their opinion, even though misdirected, it is their opinion.

Chriss Grube wrote:

"We have argued the point many times and many ways. I give up. Lets make a division for everybody and we can all compete against ourself. Match fees can go up 300 bucks so we all get a nice prize too! UnFingbelieveable!"

First off, let me say that I am not shooting for prizes. I shoot for the plain enjoyment (Chriss is right, I shoot against myself). If prizes are that big of an issue, to some, maybe there could be a straight drawing. If everyone pays the same entry fee, then he/she is entitled to be entered in a drawing for prizes. S&W did this for the people shooting their pistols.

There could also be a PRO division (like in bass fishing) where the pro pays a large fee and the money is paid out in order of finish. Can you imagine a match that pays out $100,000 or more to the winner? The amateurs shoot (fish) for different prizes.

I think Single Stack Division should be here to stay and it should classify it's shooters. I have some 1911 single stack pistols. Even though I shoot Limited 10 right now, I will go back from time to time to shoot Single Stack especially when I bring a new shooter to a match.

Now, everyone go and buy a Chevy pickup!

Buddy

[AikiDale]

So the question really is what kind of sport do we want to be.

If we want to find out on any given day the best combination of human and gun to score the highest hit factor over a given set of stages we have no divisions. The free market works and we measure the combination of human and machine. I was not even aware of USPSA when this was the norm but I understand this was the way it was back in the day....

If we want to find out on any given day who may be the fastest and most accurate shooter we have one standard pistol format all competitors use, all equipment advantages are minimalized and we measure the human. The Single Stack Classic and the Glock Shooting Sports Foundation matches have proven this works.

If we want to promote the shooting sports to as many as possible we have various divisions and categories of rules, shooters and equipment to create a safe, enjoyable venue for each shooter to play and improve their skills in a recreational format.

If I had to pick only one I'd go with the latter. However, we, i.e., USPSA, could actually sanction events of all three types. We need not limit ourselves.

Single Stack is a good idea and Gary has my thanks for making it happen. I'm biased of course, I won a stage shooting Single Stack last weekend (We don't need to go into the stage I zeroed.)

[Bdavis]

Flex,

While the results would look the same the match would be substantially different. And if we all compete in one huge division why do you need a $4,000 gun. Why can't I compete in one huge division but only care about where I finished in Limited, or L10, or Production, or Revolver, or Single Stack. Why does there have to be a different match with seperate prize tables. Why can't we live with being 65th overall but top Limited?

There was a year (2205) that shooters who won their class won a SA GI and if they were shooting a Springfield product they could upgrade that to one of the cusotm 1911. I believe there was enough for every class winner. This year the top 3 got custom guns and by the time you got to A class there was not much left in comparison. We are attracting more people who are only happy when they win something big, rather than finding the enjoyment in shooting the match. I can't tell you how many emails I get during registration wanting to know what the prize table is and how it is going to be awarded, what "gifts" are going to be given out at registration and how much are ther worth. Older guys bitching about having to compete with younger guys and afraid they can't keep up, and if we are not going to give out prized for Senior or Super Senior they won't come back next year. It is not many but enough that I fear the match is changing into something that it was not, and really don't want it to become. Sounds like burn out. I love this match and have worked in 11 years, and have done many USPSA Nationals and IPSC International matches. Something needs to change and I was hoping it would not be the match.

[rgkeller]

BDavis

Sever the USPSA relationship before you change the match.

The USPSA can always put on their own SS Nationals.

[Gary Stevens]

Bill this is an honest question as some of the things you posted are foreign to me. Other than a few tweeks to the rules, which are still basically SSC, has USPSA intruded into the prize distribution? If so ,I am completely unaware of this. I thought that the running of the SSC/USPSA Nationals was still left basically to the SSC, with a few noted exceptions in the rule area.

Thanks,

Gary

[SteveZ]

I truely wish that whoever becomes president of the USPSA would make it one of their goals to get rid of prize tables from all the major matches...and roll back the match fees accordingly. Prize tables are wrecking this game...its supposed to be about shooting not "what can I win from this match".

Bill's post is a perfect example of this.

Edited May 31, 2007 by SteveZ

[Flexmoney]

Bdavis,

From your earlier post, I felt you were angling from a prize table perspective, but I didn't want to assume that. Your last posts seems to confirm that a bit.

I couldn't care less about prize tables. (and I have run a few successful Level III matches without them)

I do care that we seem to...in the last few years...be getting out of the funk that says "you gotta have a $$$$ gun to play in USPSA/IPSC".

I don't know what changing the name from 'divisions' to 'categories' would do for us...or the prize table. I would guess that the same shooters that won't show if yo9u take away their Super Senior prize won't show if you don't award for their category.

I don't see much up-side.

[Lee Bell]

As to the classifiers, the short answer is Dave Thomas was strongly against including classifier data into the data base from a division that was only provisional. Dave is very protective of the classifier data base, as he should be, and his opposition to this would have been the death of the division if I had insisted on them being counted. Therefore a compromise had to be reached or the division would not be in existance today. The compromise was that the classifiers would be archived and included in the database if the division received full status. I didn't like the idea, although I understood it fully, but thought it was a reasonable thing to do to get the division off the ground.Gary

Thanks for all the hard work. Those of us anxiously awaiting full status for SS appreciate everything you've done.

Two questions:

1. Are PSSD classifiers being archived at the organization lavel or at the club level. I'm sure I've been told that my club does not even submit them. Not that I'm proud enough of my past scores to care, but I am improving. If scores are to be archived by the organization rather than at the club level, it's time for me to go back to shooting PSSD and to talk to my club.

2. If it's very, very, very sure that the division will gain full status first of next year, is it possibly time to renegotiate the compromise? The sooner we start counting, the sooner we're likely to demonstrate our support for your hard work.

Lee

[Alan Meek]

Lee,

The PSSD Classifiers are being archived at USPSA, unless the local club is still submitting classifiers the old fashioned way and not including them in their match report.

Alan

[Gary Stevens]

Lee,

As Alan said, those that have been sent in are archived at USPSA. If they have never been sent in, then they don't exist.

As to your second question, that seems very reasonable to me. As soon as the fate of SS has been finalized, it would seem an appropriate time to enter the archived classifiers, which of course would include those shot the remainder of the test period. This would give us a head start on the date the division went full time, assuming that it does.

If and when the time is appripriate, I'll raise the subject. Who knows what the answer will be though

Gary

Edited May 31, 2007 by Gary Stevens

[SmittyFL]

I think I only shot 1 SSC prior to USPSA's involvement. At the time they ran the Lewis system for prizes. I think it was the first year Springfiled took over as main match sponsor. There were a crap load of guns to be given away. I was one miss away from winning a gun.....meaning, with the Lewis system if I had one more penalty and moved down one percent I would have won.

This year with USPSA's involvement, there were a crap load of guns to be given away. I think they did it via the USPSA class system. I was outside enjoying a beverage most of the time so I don't know for sure. I knew I didn't win the match or place in class so I wasn't too worried about it.

However either way, I don't see how USPSA's involvement changed the match. Granted I don't run it and have only shot a few of them. But it is one of my favorite matches of the year now, mainly because it's a pretty much just a shootin' match. Everybody is using the same equipment shooting 'heads up' more or less; I just think there is something cool about that.

My involvement has been limited but I have shot it with and without USPSA and honestly didn't notice any difference at all. It was a great match prior and is a great match today. I know I'll be back! Heck maybe I'll beat Robbie next year. Though I think he was born with a single stack in his hand.

-S

[Derwoodski]

I have only shot one major match, the Wisconsin sectionals this year,and the prize table was all random drawing, with trophys for division and class winners (1,2,3 if enough shooters) and high Junior, Ladies, senior, etc. Didn't hear any grumbling about who got what, of the course the free beer they supplied may have had something to do with that too.

[Bdavis]

Bill this is an honest question as some of the things you posted are foreign to me. Other than a few tweeks to the rules, which are still basically SSC, has USPSA intruded into the prize distribution? If so ,I am completely unaware of this. I thought that the running of the SSC/USPSA Nationals was still left basically to the SSC, with a few noted exceptions in the rule area.

Thanks,

Gary

Gary,

Your right. It is not the USPSA I would blame for the changes in atmosphere and potential changes I worry about. If I conveyed that thought it was not intentional and not what I believe. I believe it is more of an issue of communication and expectation. I suspect normal "growing pains" associated with moving a match from a Big club match to a National venue. I guess my problem (and it is mine) is that the Nationals venue draws a small percentage of shooters who are"high maintenance" when it comes to match administration. That is not the USPSA fault. If I really boil all down to one things, it is the prize table situation and what it seems to bring out in some people. That has drawn these shooters, drives these shooters and is the source of most of my concerns (Flex, I guess I just like the idea of one National match for cost reasons for the USPSA, and have one National Champion, not 6 based on divisions, it cheapens the title IMHO). The only thing I can place on the USPSA is that they don't seem to address the prize table issue and they are the only one that truly can. Having multiple National matches force multiple National qualilty prize tables.

Gary, the rest of this I am trusting people like you to do the "right thing". I really enjoy the SS matches and the new division. But everything other division that USPSA has created had morphed into something that it was not really intended to be, an equipment race (at least after the institution of Limited Division). We are seeing it in Production now and I don't want to see that in SS. Your diligence on the rules and your patient responses to forum members has been exemplary. I can only hope that you can continue that or the future BOD will honor that thinking.

As you can attest at this years match, a huge single stack magwell appeared and that may very mark our fits step down the slippery slope of another equipment race. I am not opposed to innovation and equipment evolving. But I like the idea of a division that remains pure and I see SS as a possible case in point. Maybe I'm just locked up too much in Stats & Registration to see how much fun the shooters are having. I may be totally off-base.

I can say that I have never worked with better ROs than we have had at the SSC, or a better Match Director or Range Master. It is working with them that really keeps me coming back.

[Gary Stevens]

Thanks Bill,

I do think we are going through a bit of growing pains. Part of the idea of a test period was to actually encourage these growing pains, so that we could address them before the division became a reality. This was somewhat different from previous approaches to a new division. We'll see how it works out.

Now on to a different question, the mag well that caused a bit of a stir at the last match.

Let me pose a hypothetical. Since this magwell will fit in the SSC box, if a shooter had signed up for the match, prior to USPSA involvement, with it on his/her gun ,would they have been allowed to compete?

I know you were not the MD or RM, but it is still a valid question. My guess is that they would have since it fit in the established box at that time. Of course since the SSC was a "benevolent dictatorship" maybe not

Pehaps it was not so much the involvement of USPSA with the SSC, as it relates to this mag well, but more a factor of timing. With more interest in the 1911 single stack it is somewhat inevitable that new "improvemets' will surface. I think we have tried to be forward thinking and addressed most of these issues that really matter, but only time will tell.

Thanks again,

Gary

Edited May 31, 2007 by Gary Stevens

[XRe]

Your right. It is not the USPSA I would blame for the changes in atmosphere and potential changes I worry about. If I conveyed that thought it was not intentional and not what I believe.

Thanks for clarifying that, Bill - your previous post seemed to imply that the opposite was true.

(Flex, I guess I just like the idea of one National match for cost reasons for the USPSA, and have one National Champion, not 6 based on divisions, it cheapens the title IMHO).

Having watched the contest of these titles, though, I'd say maybe you're not giving the individual champions much credit - they are all hard-won matches, and the folks who win them deserve those titles. There might be something to be said, though, for "crowning" a national champ based on placement in those matches, maybe - though how you'd determine it for sure is beyond me. If we go back to shooting heads-up in USPSA, everyone vying for the national title will shoot Open. If we award prizes based on category, and award category champions, we haven't really changed anything, in the end. If we hold one match, and people shoot whatever, and we award a National Champion for the HOA shooter, and then category winners (or division winners), etc... then the National Champion will (almost) always be an Open shooter.

The only thing I can place on the USPSA is that they don't seem to address the prize table issue and they are the only one that truly can. Having multiple National matches force multiple National qualilty prize tables.

This is very true. Personally, I'm with Flex - I don't shoot for the prize table, I shoot to compete against the best in the game, and test my skills against them. If I win something off a prize table, that's great - but that's not my motivation for being there. I'd show up even if there weren't a prize table (and I'd expect to see a commensurate reduction in match fees, too). The prize table, though, has become part of the marketing of the match. And... its one of the main ways we are able to involve the industry in supporting the game (most, if not all, of the sponsorship support from the vendors is in the form of donated merchandise, as opposed to cash support for the match, etc). While having a prize table does seem to bring out the worst in some folks, I don't think doing away with them in an effort to get rid of the "high maintenance" folks is maybe the right move.

Personally, assuming that all of the relevant info about the match is published ahead of time, I don't have any problem with the match staff being gruff with the "high maintenance" types

Sorry for the drift, guys...

[Lee Bell]

Lee,

The PSSD Classifiers are being archived at USPSA, unless the local club is still submitting classifiers the old fashioned way and not including them in their match report.

Alan

Thanks, Alan. I'll ask about that tonight. I'm on my way over to the range in a few minutes to sight in my AR-15 for an upcoming precision rifle match and then shoot in a club match. Yes, I know my .223 isn't the most precise rifle in the planet, but the match is designed to favor autoloaders and I'm just not sure I can work the bolt on my new 22-250 fast enough to keep up.

Lee

[TxD]

When is the BOD vote on SSD?

Thanks in advance.

[SmittyFL]

Does anyone shoot for the prize table? I think the answer is most likely no. If you are in this sport for the prizes you have some mathematical deficiencies. It's like spending $25 at the fair to win a $1 stuffed animal.

However I think most would agree that a nice prize table adds to the match.....doesn't make the match, but adds to it.

I think we all shoot to compete and most of us would do it regardless of prizes, trophies, or anything. But if a match is otherwise good; stages, schedule, venue, fee, etc. Who doesn't like a prize table as icing on the cake?

I also think a common misconception (it's been said a couple times in this thread) is match fees would go down if there were no prize table. It's been said on here before but in general very little of the match money goes towards the prize table. The prizes are generally donated by sponsors. Just look at some of the matches out there. The FL Open has one of the highest match fees outside the Nationals and it's prize table is a joke....on the other hand the TN Section match has a very reasonable match fee and it's prize table rivals the Nationals.

[Nik Habicht]

Gang,

until we invent a division where the match supplies the guns and holsters and mags and mag carriers and ammo, we're always going to have an equipment race. Some people are going to want lighter bullets, others will prefer heavier. The same thing can be said when it comes to guns......

Th reality is that we're about racing with guns, and he who scores the most points per second wins. It seems unrealistic to expect that shooters who are training hard to improve wouldn't also be tuning equipment to get them every possible legal advantage. This is not unlike life however ----- when I became a professional photographer (in 1992) 35mm film cameras with five shot per second motor drives and mostly fixed lenses extending out to 300 mm were the standard kit for newspaper shooters. Fifteen years later, it's digital SLRs capable of shooting up to 10 pictures per second, fitted with mostly zoom lenses, and the long glass has grown to 400mm. They're on the verge of shooting video, and grabbing still frames from that for the printed paper, while running video on the paper's website....

Yeah, nostalgia makes us remember the days of yesteryear, when it seemed that everyone was racing with a SS, chambered in .45 ACP, fed from 7 or 8 rounds mags, but I've heard the stories from people who were in the sport earlier than I was, of the multiple transformations in a couple of years, as open guns were invented.....

And I suppose that we'll always have this argument ---- between the people who think it's the Indian, and the people who are convinced it's simply the arrow......

[ipscbob]

And I suppose that we'll always have this argument ---- between the people who think it's the Indian, and the people who are convinced it's simply the arrow......

Excellent Point, Nik. I will add that those who are NOT the fastest most accurate indian often look to the arrow as the answer to their shortcomings. It is always easier to blame the inequities due to the "equipment race" for our own failure than it is to improve ourselves.

[Bob Hostetter]

I like the idea of separating the SSC and the Single Stack Nationals. That would give us two really big Single Stack matches every year............

[Gary Stevens]

If and/or when the SSC and Single Stack Nationals are separated there will not be a stand alone Single Stack Nationals. It will be combined with the other divisions in either a single or split nationals. Probably 2-3 divisions in one match and the rest in the remaining match.

Gary

Edited June 1, 2007 by Gary Stevens