Single Stack Division

[nipplehead]

Z no nay sayer here just simple observation. I have nothing against SS. I shot a SS for 3.5 years in L10 before I was able to get a Limited Gun.. I guess I am biased a little because I thought L10 was the place to play with a SS and did not see the need for a new lower round count division.

However anything that might bring new shooters in is a plus and I have heard some potental new shooters complain about lack of classiacation....but thats and excuse Maybe!

In my area the CDP divison is pretty strong but vey few have crossed over...I dont know why!!! But as it stands now 3-4 people tops shoot that divison at any of the 3 clubs I go to...Fine for them let them do there thing...the regular USPSA shooters In the chicagoland area go back to shooting other divisons after the SS natioals are over and dont shoot SS again til the following year and I really dont think the classifaction thing is a factor with those shooters.

how that proves your point is beyond me!!

However it could be important to new or newer shooters

[Sestock]

Having our nationals in conjuction with the SSC is a nice thought. BUT, I think the USPSA should consider running a SS nationals on our own and reward those who shoot the division at all levels below the nationals with slots.

I would like to see the New President & the BOD work together to have only three nationals 1) Multi-Gun 2) Race (Limited/Open) & 3) Factory (Production/SS/Lim 10/Rev).

To me it only seems like common sense to have similar guns at the same match from a course design standpoint.

[XD Niner]

I'm also in favor of permanently adding SS while retaining all the other divisions. I also would like to see the classifiers placed into the database now rather than waiting. I believe it will help increase participation in the SS division. I've made my sentiments known to my Area Director and encourage each of you to do the same.

[joseywales]

...

SSD is good for USPSA in many ways. It brings new shooters into and old shooters back into USPSA matches. It provides USPSA with sponsorship from many more companies (everyone makes a 1911 clone). It allows me and everyone else who owns a stock or near stock 1911 a place to shoot it that is not IDPA...

I think this really hits the 'nail on the head.'

[buddy_fuentes]

Answer this: Why does it matter if only one Single Stack shooter shows up at a match? He pays his money, shoots the same course of fire, tapes targets, and has fun just like everyone else. Whats the rub? Does it cost us anything to let them shoot in a division that only draws one shooter.

We are trying to promote our sport. The best way to do that is to introduce more people to the sport. Many already have a 1911 single stack and would have a starting point without having to buy 10 round magazines. I have seen some long time shooters shooting single stack. As long as they can compete safely...let them.

Oh, by the way, there are not too many Open shooters at the matches in this area, as compared to Limited and Limited 10.

This is a fun game/sport. Lets get more people involved and drop the politics.

Thanks, Buddy

[RPMartin]

I shot my SS in Limited when I started and became a C shooter then Limited 10 was started and I am still a C shooter. I shot my SS at a special classifier & won HOA SS still as a C shooter I guess because they are not posted on the USPSA website. To me the type of gun or division is not why I am shooting, it is because it is fun. Except for Production every other division I shoot is shot with a 45. I was reminded that I didn't have a Revolver classification. So I bought a 625 and plan to take it to my area's match just to be doing something different and to increase the number's.

The majority of the posts here are all about winning and while I would never turn down a trophy or a trip to a prize table that is not the only factor in my life. The most important thing is getting out of bed after that everything else is gravy. Now it is time for me to go practice moving 20 yard shots.

+1

RPM

Answer this: Why does it matter if only one Single Stack shooter shows up at a match? He pays his money, shoots the same course of fire, tapes targets, and has fun just like everyone else. Whats the rub? Does it cost us anything to let them shoot in a division that only draws one shooter.

We are trying to promote our sport. The best way to do that is to introduce more people to the sport. Many already have a 1911 single stack and would have a starting point without having to buy 10 round magazines. I have seen some long time shooters shooting single stack. As long as they can compete safely...let them.

Oh, by the way, there are not too many Open shooters at the matches in this area, as compared to Limited and Limited 10.

This is a fun game/sport. Lets get more people involved and drop the politics.

Thanks, Buddy

+1

RPM

[Danva]

We have a fair amount of SS shooters at our matches. Not a lot but more than a few.

Besides I like shooting my SS and would like to see it as a division.

My opinion as a USPSA member

Dan C

[Chriss Grube]

Doug,

Are you counting all the matches at the seven clubs shot in a year or did W.PA explode. 800+shooters and 7 clubs? Damn that over 100 shooters a match????? The numbers seem a little high.

[Sestock]

Doug,

Are you counting all the matches at the seven clubs shot in a year or did W.PA explode. 800+shooters and 7 clubs? Damn that over 100 shooters a match????? The numbers seem a little high.

Chris that is 2007 YTD for the seven clubs. We only have had a little more than two months of the season so far. Last year we had almost 3000 shooters in the section for the year. Pittsburgh is definately a hot spot for USPSA, you can shoot every weekend.

Edited May 16, 2007 by Sestock

[Coach]

I thought Single stack was going to be a good idea originally, but then it became clear that it was limited 8. I do not understand the limited 8 part what so ever. There are many great ten round magazines out there. If the division allowed ten rounds mags in major then it would be much more viable. This is 2007 what limit yourself to eight rounds when ten is available? That makes no sense to me.

[WickedBag]

I thought Single stack was going to be a good idea originally, but then it became clear that it was limited 8. I do not understand the limited 8 part what so ever. There are many great ten round magazines out there. If the division allowed ten rounds mags in major then it would be much more viable. This is 2007 what limit yourself to eight rounds when ten is available? That makes no sense to me.

I don't really follow that logic. Limited allows mods that SS does not...correct?

Personally, I just recently joined USPSA and started shooting local matches because of the Single Stack division. I have to admit that I was a little frustrated that my classifier results are landing on somebody's coffee table though. I would certainly not want to see SS impact any existing division in any way. I just see SS as a great way for someone like myself to participate against a similar class of guns.

- John

[buddy_fuentes]

John, I have the same take as you. And Royce there are plenty of good 10 round magazines out there. There is also a Limited 10 division that uses those 10 round magazines.

I don't shoot in Single Stack at this time. I shoot in Limited 10 with a Wilson KZ-45. Ten shot double stack pistol. I just got a Dawson Edge in .40S&W and have not decided to shoot in Limited, Limited 10, or both. I have some Single Stacks, too.

I am just saying give me a good reason why we should not have the Single Stack division. Is it because there are too few shooters? Does it water down the other divisions? Those are probably shooters that will leave and go to IDPA, or worse yet! Just leave. The Single Stack was one of the pistols that started our great sport.

Come on guys...lets work together and let everyone play.

Buddy

[Anopsis]

I'm all for it; that's how I got into the sport. I shot my single stack 1911 (doesn't everybody have one?) and was exposed to the rest of the divisions. Now I shoot SS and Limited whenever I can.

[38superman]

I now have earned a classification in every USPSA division except revolver.

One of the things that I have learned is that every division is unique and has something to offer.

Open - Pure Speed, run like the wind.

Limited - Pure Speed with open sights.

Limited 10 - Thinking man's game. Shoot whatever you like.

Production - Those that can't shoot straight need not apply.

All present different challenges and SS will be no different.

All the divisions are great fun and I see no reason to limit ourselves to just a few of them.

SS will find it's place.

Have a little patience.

Tony

[CDRODA396]

Here are the shooter counts from the last two local matches at one club...

Limited 12

Limited-10 19

Open 3

Production 22

Single Stack 6

Total: 62

Limited 11

Limited-10 16

Open 1

Production 31

Single Stack 5

Total: 64

As you can see, SS trumps Open in these parts. I think its somewhat because its around one of the larger military bases and iron sights are applicable at work and play. Having talked to some of the L-10 shooters, if the SS does get adopted full up, many would move over.

I think it would only do the sport good, and would only grow if adopted.

[boo radley]

Here are the shooter counts from the last two local matches at one club...

Limited 11

Limited-10 16

Open 1

Production 31

Single Stack 5

Total: 64

Yeah, but Paul -- I see those stats as exactly what's problematic with this issue, until it gets resolved.

5 shooters in Single-Stack (btw, did Rob L. really shoot this match??). 16 in L10, maybe 14 of whom shoot 1911's?

Move a couple over, and you've now got two weak Divisions, instead of a single Division with 21 shooters.

Here's what interesting:

2001 Area 6:

8 Production shooters, 6 of whom had "U" classification

2002 Area 6:

19 Production shooters

2006 Area 6:

11 Single Stack shooters, 0 were "U" classified

2007 Area 6:

6 Single Stack shooter, 0 were "U" classified

I'm presuming in a major match that offers plaques, prize $, fame and glory, no one is going to much care about the classifier for the sake of classification....So now where is everyone?

I agree with JFD -- it's probably going to go through regardless. I think for it to become "popular" -- which is different from "successful" -- it will require major sponsorship input at area matches. Single-stacks guns and special prize $ given away only, or with a focus, to this Division. Reduce the entry fee, or something, if you're willing to shoot SS. Dunno, just my 2 casings.

[scirocco38s]

Paul, Your stats for the 2 clubs are not indicative of the area. The match at my club has never had a large turnout in singlestack. And now that the ss nats are over it has dropped off more. Open at the club matches hovers around 10, Limited and production is where the greatest population is. Also r-14 really caters to the production, l-10,ss guys by the fact that most the guys on the base shoot for free and get free ammo to shoot with. I dont have a problem with the low turnout though as long as we get folks shooting. I do wish they would go ahead and recognize the division so to get classified in ss, you dont have to shoot a differt division until you are classified.

Edited May 16, 2007 by scirocco38s

[Jim Norman]

There are lies, Damed Lies and Statistics.

That said, here are ours:

February, March and April 142 total shooters, Feb 42, March 88, April 63

Open 45 31.69%

Limited 58 40.85%

L-10 16 11.27%

Production 62 43.66%

SS 2 1.4%

Revo, 0

So, what does this mean? Absolutely NOTHING

Well not absolutely, but darned near. It means that most of our shooters would seem to prefer the three largest divisions. Well duh! Why do wethink they are the three largest? Could it be that more people shoot them?

What will we do about this? Nothing. So long as one person shows up in a division, we will score said division and post the scores. If three show up in a class we wil pay, if 5 show up in a divisoin we will pay Division Winner.

It does not have any downside unless you look at the maybe one or two people that some might think are divisoin shopping. Usually what happens here is people do shop, but not in an effort to avoid, but rather to make sure they are in the more competitive division.

Example, If a couple really good Limited shooters decide to shoot L10, a lot of other Lims may swith over. We want to see how we do against the best, not see how we do against the ones we already know are at a lower competitive level.

I think of most thing like standing in line to get a cold drink on a hot day. It is the people in front of me that stand between me and satisfaction, not those behind me.

Where am I going with this? We have right now 5 full and one provisional division in which just about any modern viable handgun can play. Make SS a full divisoin and allow all SA Single Satcks in. Allow light rails and full dust covers etc. We are not the Single Stack Society, we are USPSA. Arguably we are looking a L8/Production with major scoring, SO WHAT? If people in any section or area want to shoot this, let them! It builds our numbers.

AND the number one reason to have a new division recognized....

We get to go buy an new gun!!!!

Jim Norman

[Coach]

Royce there are plenty of good 10 round magazines out there. There is also a Limited 10 division that uses those 10 round magazines.

There are other differences between SS and L10. SS has something to offer, but why say 8 round limit? That seems screwy to me. Does revolver only load five because that is traditional. We have 10 rounders for SS guns use them. SS then would be free of the fat gun v/s skinny gun arguement and those who want to can get back to the roots in the form of the gun. That is all I was saying.

In Indiana there is a fair amount of participation in the division. Much bigger than revolver.

Reloading extra times because of capacity just does not appeal to me. I must be weird.

[Jim Norman]

How about Open-SS? we can add that to Open-10, Revo-8 and open Revo. Now, if only we had a BHP division. Production-SA-10 and Production-SA.

Would adding 6 more divisions make room for everyone?

Not trying to be funny here, just pointing out that no matter how many divisions we have, there is likely a gun outt there that does not have a home in USPSA.

Jim

[ima45dv8]

I think of most thing like standing in line to get a cold drink on a hot day. It is the people in front of me that stand between me and satisfaction, not those behind me.

That's a GREAT quote.

[Tungsten]

I've hesitated to post a reply to this thread for several days now because (a.) I'm a rank newbie at the whole USPSA thing and (b.) I wasn't sure if what I had to say was worth wasting anyone's time with. I'm still not so sure of the latter but here goes anyway...

I for one hope that USPSA's board of directors DOES incorporate Single Stack into the official regimen of what's available to shooters and do away with the provisional status. My first ever USPSA shoot was about a month ago and I did it in the SS division with my 5" Smith & Wesson 1911 and the handful of Wilson Combat 8-round magazines that I already owned. The only gear that I purchased for this event was two dual-mag carriers and a kydex G-Code outside the waistband holster. Everything else was something I already owned for the sake of carrying the weapon periodically (it's not my normal concealed-carry gun).

My reason for pointing all of this out is that, in my opinion, Single Stack is to the 1911 style handguns what Production is to the double-action, often-polymer, handguns. It's a division where someone can participate with a modest investment in gear... some of which they probably already own.

Sure, I could buy a bunch of 10 round mags for my 1911 and shoot in Limited 10. But why? Then I'd be up against guys with far more done to their handguns than I prefer to do to my venerable old 1911. Single Stack levels the playing field for contestants (like me) who just like to take their simple firearms out occasionally and stretch their legs a bit.

As others have said, Single Stack opened my eyes to the other divisions and now I find myself shooting Limited 10 as well. It's nice to have options like this.

[Alan Meek]

I've hesitated to post a reply to this thread for several days now because (a.) I'm a rank newbie at the whole USPSA thing and (b.) I wasn't sure if what I had to say was worth wasting anyone's time with. I'm still not so sure of the latter but here goes anyway...

I for one hope that USPSA's board of directors DOES incorporate Single Stack into the official regimen of what's available to shooters and do away with the provisional status. My first ever USPSA shoot was about a month ago and I did it in the SS division with my 5" Smith & Wesson 1911 and the handful of Wilson Combat 8-round magazines that I already owned. The only gear that I purchased for this event was two dual-mag carriers and a kydex G-Code outside the waistband holster. Everything else was something I already owned for the sake of carrying the weapon periodically (it's not my normal concealed-carry gun).

My reason for pointing all of this out is that, in my opinion, Single Stack is to the 1911 style handguns what Production is to the double-action, often-polymer, handguns. It's a division where someone can participate with a modest investment in gear... some of which they probably already own.

Sure, I could buy a bunch of 10 round mags for my 1911 and shoot in Limited 10. But why? Then I'd be up against guys with far more done to their handguns than I prefer to do to my venerable old 1911. Single Stack levels the playing field for contestants (like me) who just like to take their simple firearms out occasionally and stretch their legs a bit.

As others have said, Single Stack opened my eyes to the other divisions and now I find myself shooting Limited 10 as well. It's nice to have options like this.

Tungsten,

Welcome and what you have to say is just as, if not more important than those of us that have been in this game for many moons.

Alan

[zhunter]

I've hesitated to post a reply to this thread for several days now because (a.) I'm a rank newbie at the whole USPSA thing and (b.) I wasn't sure if what I had to say was worth wasting anyone's time with. I'm still not so sure of the latter but here goes anyway...

I for one hope that USPSA's board of directors DOES incorporate Single Stack into the official regimen of what's available to shooters and do away with the provisional status. My first ever USPSA shoot was about a month ago and I did it in the SS division with my 5" Smith & Wesson 1911 and the handful of Wilson Combat 8-round magazines that I already owned. The only gear that I purchased for this event was two dual-mag carriers and a kydex G-Code outside the waistband holster. Everything else was something I already owned for the sake of carrying the weapon periodically (it's not my normal concealed-carry gun).

My reason for pointing all of this out is that, in my opinion, Single Stack is to the 1911 style handguns what Production is to the double-action, often-polymer, handguns. It's a division where someone can participate with a modest investment in gear... some of which they probably already own.

Sure, I could buy a bunch of 10 round mags for my 1911 and shoot in Limited 10. But why? Then I'd be up against guys with far more done to their handguns than I prefer to do to my venerable old 1911. Single Stack levels the playing field for contestants (like me) who just like to take their simple firearms out occasionally and stretch their legs a bit.

As others have said, Single Stack opened my eyes to the other divisions and now I find myself shooting Limited 10 as well. It's nice to have options like this.

Tungsten,

Welcome and what you have to say is just as, if not more important than those of us that have been in this game for many moons.

Alan

+1

[Viggen]

If folks seem to want a Limited-8 Division, that's fine. But to restrict it to one type of gun only(traditional 1911) is silly. If you do that than you might just as well set up a Glock Division, and there would be a lot more players in that than in a SS Division.

Just because JM Browning invented something and it was good is not a reason for it to split out as a Division. There are a fair amount of Sigs, S&W's, CZ's and whatever that would fit into Limited-8/SS and add to the mix.

Does Limited-8/SS in USPSA really make sense? Limited-10 is not going to be eliminated, not with the recent resurgence of magazine ban activity(Illinois).