If USPSA Production allowed full cap mags, what would you shoot?

[Carlos]

PB,

Having 19 rounds instead of 17 may not be the difference...but I'm willing to bet it will matter on 1 or 2 stages in the course of a major.

That is what most USPSA & IPSC competitors believe. Look at the obsession with gaining 1 or 2 extra rounds here on be.com and on the global village. We probably spend more time on this topic than any other gun-technical topic. Does it matter in reality? -frankly, reality does not matter. Popular perception is that 1 or 2 rounds really matter in our sport. AND - course designers create stages to force what they perceive as magazine capacity (I certainly have done that: making a course 12 rounds intead of 10 or 11 or making it 22 rounds instead of 20, etc.).

RacerBA wrote: "17 vs. 19 is no big deal. Losing a couple of rounds to someone isn't as big a deal as people make it out to be. Reloading on the move isn't going to cost me much more time."

That may be true. I tend to agree with you. But its not what people believe nor is it what they will do. Everyone will jump to the highest capacity 9mm-only production guns based on perception (they do it in IPSC). I also agree with TGO that accuracy is what counts and in general, too many of us are too obsessed with speed at the expense of accuracy (that is what I recall of the interview with him from the '05 nationals. Will TGO's advice go unheeded? I think so.

Change the capacity rules and you will only see 4 guns in production: SP-01 (18 rounds) Tanfoglio (same) Glock 17 (18 rnds - yes you can usually squeeze on extra in a 17) or Para LDA-18.

The door will be closed to any other guns being "perceived" as competitive. That would be an unfortunate change from the successful division we have now. Leave Production alone.

Edited May 10, 2007 by Carlos

[Middle Man]

The capacity issue is really a rather weak argument. Sure more rounds is generally better however, one could argue that those one or two additional rounds in a competitive environment tend to represent a certain amount of diminishing returns. While the diminishing returns idea really shows up in Limited and Open (think reliability, durability issues), the same idea applies to Production with full capacity magazines. These diminishing returns in Production deals more with the overall interaction of the shooter and his chosen pistol.

Allow me to expound; the quest for extra few rounds in a Limited/Open gun generally cause feed issues that choke pistols and can lead to durability problems in the magazine assemblies themselves. Occasionally, we tinker with the magazine components in pursuit of "one more round" only to have a gun that refuses to run. On the Production side, many of the responses in this thread tell the tale. There is more to the Production equation that just round capacity. Shooters feel that certain guns "fit" them better. Different grip angles, different bore axis heights, different centers of gravity, different weights, etc. these factors (and many others) lead shooters to pick one Production gun over another.

So you may be asking, where the diminishing return of one or two more rounds come into play in Production. Simple, if the 19 round CZ or Tanfoglio does not fit your hand or you cannot comfortably reach the longer distance from the back strap to the trigger face or if the weight of an all steel gun feels like slogging through six inches of soupy mud then you'll opt for a 17 round polymer gun.

A great deal of this whole question goes back to good course design. If the course has any imagination at all there will be one break to reload. In most cases 16 rounds is going to get you halfway through the stage. Why do so many shooters fear a simple reload?

ETA: Carlos somewhat beat me to the punch...

Edited May 10, 2007 by Middle Man

[ChuckS]

Different stages may or may not make capacity an issue. As for reliability, I have seen 8 round mags FUBAR so I am not sure how reliability fits in. One thing I know for sure: In 7 years of this game I have never heard anyone walking off a stage bitching that they had TOO MANY rounds in the gun !

[Flexmoney]

I've been training with Glock all this time, so there's no need for me to switch.

Ceteras parabus, you're kidding yourself if you think having 19 rounds is the kryptonite to the 17 round guns.

It is if the stage designs take advantage of the current 9 rounds per position.

I would still shoot my glock. 17 vs. 19 is no big deal. Losing a couple of rounds to someone isn't as big a deal as people make it out to be. Reloading on the move isn't going to cost me much more time.

I'll take that bet !

Just guessing...I'd put it at a 3-10% disadvantage.

Oh...btw...I missed a reload at the last match. Given the time that cost...the disadvantage goes up..up..up.

[Micah]

PB,

Having 19 rounds instead of 17 may not be the difference...but I'm willing to bet it will matter on 1 or 2 stages in the course of a major.

I agree that 2 more rounds is nice, but I was trying to convey skill over capacity.

Moving to a CZ from another platform isn't the magical "Win Wand", and the same can be said about going from CZ to Glocks or M&P's.

I've been training with Glock all this time, so there's no need for me to switch.

Ceteras parabus, you're kidding yourself if you think having 19 rounds is the kryptonite to the 17 round guns.

It is if the stage designs take advantage of the current 9 rounds per position.

I guess using kryptonite left too much to interpretation (I have Lex Luthor on the brain today). Let me restate my though.

19 is better than 17, but if you practice hard, you can overcome the round count difficiancy.

Let's take Flyin40 for example. This Open Master shoots .40 cal, and by doing so, is down a few rounds from his major 9, 38 super/super comp competitors. The man moves like greased lightning and hits A's like it's going out of style.

[Flexmoney]

In 7 years of this game I have never heard anyone walking off a stage bitching that they had TOO MANY rounds in the gun !

You got that right.

And, that kinda proves the point to.

Even now...with 10+1 in the gun and arrays that are no more than 9 rounds, people grumble for more rounds in the mags. To think that they wouldn't go for the gun with the most capacity is...at best...a silly notion.

Fear often drives the desire for more capacity...

- more bullets = more cushion if you screw up

- more bullets = less stage planning needed

- more bullets = less reloading practice needed

More practice = none of that really matters. Suck it up folks and learn to shoot better. For the money we spend on this sport...why not improve? You can learn a lot from shooting 10 round divisions. It is a tough route though. No glory. Then again, if you can't hack it anyway...you might not be getting much glory in the first place (Please, only get upset at the above statements if they apply directly to you. )

I agree that 2 more rounds is nice, but I was trying to convey skill over capacity.

I'd be looking for capacity if it meant I only had to reload once (or not at all) on most stages. I can learn to shoot most anything that runs (there is where the skill part comes in).

Let's take Flyin40 for example. This Open Master shoots .40 cal, and by doing so, is down a few rounds from his major 9, 38 super/super comp competitors.

Again...he has enough capacity (25'ish) that he also only has to reload one time...same as an open shooter with a slightly larger capacity magazine. He is looking at the same one (or none) reload as the other guys/gals.

[sslav]

On the Production side, many of the responses in this thread tell the tale. There is more to the Production equation that just round capacity.

And yet 92% would use 9mm. 50% gravitate to two manufacturers. Two other manufacturers account for 23% of the remaining 50%. Thats 73% ging for one of 4 guns.

Edited May 10, 2007 by sslav

[Carlos]

On the Production side, many of the responses in this thread tell the tale. There is more to the Production equation that just round capacity.

And yet 92% would use 9mm. 50% gravitate to two manufacturers. Two other manufacturers account for 23% of the remaining 50%. Thats 73% ging for one of 4 guns.

Exactly - and I see that as a problem since new shooters (which we desperately need) will feel the need to have one of those guns to be competitive (whether it is true or not).

I am all in favor of keeping the door open to new shooters & the folks "behind enemy lines" in CA, NY, etc.

BTW - I have shot an SP-01 for the last 3 years and I live in a state without mag restrictions. If the rules change, I am set as far as equipment. Thus, I don't have a dog in this fight. But I want USPSA to do the right thing. Keep production as it is.

[Nemo]

That is what most USPSA & IPSC competitors believe. Look at the obsession with gaining 1 or 2 extra rounds here on be.com and on the global village. We probably spend more time on this topic than any other gun-technical topic. Does it matter in reality? -frankly, reality does not matter. Popular perception is that 1 or 2 rounds really matter in our sport. AND - course designers create stages to force what they perceive as magazine capacity (I certainly have done that: making a course 12 rounds intead of 10 or 11 or making it 22 rounds instead of 20, etc.).

RacerBA wrote: "17 vs. 19 is no big deal. Losing a couple of rounds to someone isn't as big a deal as people make it out to be. Reloading on the move isn't going to cost me much more time."

That may be true. I tend to agree with you. But its not what people believe nor is it what they will do. Everyone will jump to the highest capacity 9mm-only production guns based on perception (they do it in IPSC). I also agree with TGO that accuracy is what counts and in general, too many of us are too obsessed with speed at the expense of accuracy (that is what I recall of the interview with him from the '05 nationals. Will TGO's advice go unheeded? I think so.

Change the capacity rules and you will only see 4 guns in production: SP-01 (18 rounds) Tanfoglio (same) Glock 17 (18 rnds - yes you can usually squeeze on extra in a 17) or Para LDA-18.

The door will be closed to any other guns being "perceived" as competitive. That would be an unfortunate change from the successful division we have now. Leave Production alone.

Carlos, thank you for putting my thoughts into words. That about covers my purpose of starting this thread and poll. Adding to your "change capacity rules" statement, going full-cap in PD would also kill other calibers.

+1 to leaving production at 10 rounds

[Middle Man]

On the Production side, many of the responses in this thread tell the tale. There is more to the Production equation that just round capacity.

And yet 92% would use 9mm. 50% gravitate to two manufacturers. Two other manufacturers account for 23% of the remaining 50%. Thats 73% ging for one of 4 guns.

I'll wager 9mm is more popular due to factors other than capacity.

As stated in other places, Glock dominates the semi auto pistol market by a wide margin. Recent trends show that other manufactures may have finally hit upon something to challenge Glock's dominance. Of the other pistols listed on the poll CZ (and clones) are the only choices that are in the same neighborhood as a Glock in price, which is playing a role here as well.

In many ways, shooters as a competitive, collective group are wary of diverging from what has been established as the consensus regarding pistols.

Edited May 10, 2007 by Middle Man

[eerw]

as simply said..

leaving production at 10 rounds gives lots of entry points...just about any gun, any caliber can play..

if opened up to what factory capacity is..then the choice is very very limited..as that is where shooters will gravitate..even though shooting points is equally important in production..

right now..while I like shooting all the divisions..

production is a good balance of accuracy, speed, ( sorry no power ), stage planning of all the divisions..and I like that challenge..

[JFlowers]

If I shot Production regularly, I would either go with a Glock or a Para, but since I am concentrating on Open, I shoot my Glock .40 when I want a change for a day.

I still think USPSA needs to decide WHAT production is before they answer this question. If its only another competitive division, then changing to standard capacity magazines is a possibility, though I do think it will narrow the equipment field. If Production is supposed to be a way to get people in the game, then openness to various equipment should take more weight than competitiveness and the 10 round limitation opens the field up to a lot of not-really-competitive but nice guns. A lot of my friends own Ruger or older S&W autos. Not the most competive guns, but more than useful for starting in Production.

Well, just my $0.015 worth,

James

[00bullitt]

Leave production the way it is. 10 rounds is fine. If you want to shoot full capacity 9mm......shoot Limited minor.

[ima45dv8]

***As a gentle reminder, I'd like to point out that this topic/poll was established on the premise of, "If USPSA Production allowed full cap mags...."

Let's not start another debate over whether that should be allowed, lest the thread get closed like the one from yesterday.

Thanks to all....

[revchuck]

Silly me - I'm the only one who voted for Beretta. You didn't specify by whose rules (USPSA/IPSC) we'd be shooting, and all I'd have to do is add some 18 round Mec-Gars - which I'm pretty sure would be legal - and keep on truckin'. The factory DA on my Beretta with a D mainspring is much better than the one on my CZ-75B...and it feels weird to shoot a CZ DA, anyway, since I've always caried them C&L.

Part of this, I guess, is that my hand is large enough for the pasta pistol, and the CZ fits smaller hands better (and my hands nicely as well).

If I had to stick with the factory 15 rounders (vice the factory 16 rounders for the CZ), I'd still go with the Beretta.

[LPatterson]

Silly me I selected XD & 9MM because it fits my hand better than the Glock & Beretta that I already own but it is just another toy like the Single Stack for PSSD & Limited 10 or Revolver or Para P14-45 for Limited or the Open Glock 21. Make all the changes you want & I will still have something to play with.

[dcarter]

Boy, what is it with you die-hard Glock fans. I know Micah is set in his ways but there is still hope for most of you. Come over to the good side of the force. S&W M&P9 is the way of the future. I've heard the slogan "GLOCK PERFECTION" but what is perfect for Glock may not be perfect for you. See you Glockers on the range!

[boo radley]

Silly me - I'm the only one who voted for Beretta. You didn't specify by whose rules (USPSA/IPSC) we'd be shooting...

That's an interesting point.

Would the rules require stock magazines? What if CZ came out with a stock...extra-length magazine that held 22. Or the CZ-SP01X, with a longer, slightly fatter grip, that held 22+1 9mm rounds?

Would take some mighty mental management to offset that difference, with a stock Glock and 17 rounds, I'll wager...

Then there'd be all the "competition followers", and special springs, and plastic magazine tuning "specialists".....Bah.

[Chris Keen]

Me thinks Pharoh's new powers allow him to vote more than once.

[Micah]

Boy, what is it with you die-hard Glock fans. I know Micah is set in his ways but there is still hope for most of you. Come over to the good side of the force. S&W M&P9 is the way of the future. I've heard the slogan "GLOCK PERFECTION" but what is perfect for Glock may not be perfect for you. See you Glockers on the range!

I love Glock, but if Hi-Point called me up tomorrow and wanted to sponsor me, guess what I'd be shooting

I will admit that I love the smooth SA part of a worked on CZ, and it's weight can certainly be seen as an advantage. XD's also have a great trigger when worked on by Canyon Creek. I have yet to shoot an M&P, but if you say it's the bees knees dcarter, I'll hafta put a few down range this Sunday and see for myself.

Me thinks Pharoh's new powers allow him to vote more than once.

The Pharaoh has always been powerful...but even some things are out of his realm of multiple influence.

[Derwoodski]

I will (and would) stick with the box stock CZ-75B I normally shoot, but Production would become the wonder 9 wars ifn the 10 round restriction was lifted. I can't quite fathom how we can keep floggin this poor horse

[Nemo]

I can't quite fathom how we can keep floggin this poor horse

But... but... but I just asked what would you shoot? Guess it was inevitable.

[Derwoodski]

I can't quite fathom how we can keep floggin this poor horse

But... but... but I just asked what would you shoot? Guess it was inevitable.

LOL....yup. OMG......production......mag cap rules.......OMG.......gotta post gotta post. " I duznt wanna shoot minor limited" gotta post gotta post .....Production is broken broken broken....gotta post gotta post......OMG.....they arent changing the rules.....gotta post gotta post.

I think there is a song in there somewhere!

[ima45dv8]

I can only give you an 80 on the beat, since i was having a hard time dancing to it, but the lyrics get 100!

(Sorry -- "American Bandstand" flashback....)

[wide45]

Limited