Viggen Posted March 24, 2007 Share Posted March 24, 2007 Most clubs have LEOs that are active shooters. I would encourage anyone to find the one at your club that you know well enough to trust and run the scenario by them. See what they have to say about it and it might put things in a slightly different perspective. LEO's are not the ones calling the shots, it's not their call. They will just do as they are told by the people who pay them, even local ones. As to addressing the issue of what is legal and right, that all depends on the flavor of government in power... The paid enforcers will just enforce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALBY Posted March 24, 2007 Share Posted March 24, 2007 Radley Balko from the Cato institute has a blog called the agitator. Check it out. http://www.theagitator.com/ I'm a big supporter of law enforcement in general, but we have too many laws and too many militarized police units. When you have a SWAT team, you use your SWAT team. period. And SWAT only knows one way to roll... HEAVY. If you were in a hostage situation, you'd be damn glad to see a SWAT team. if you are the wrong address in a no knock raid, not so much. Sounds to me like you were lucky. Read Radley's blog for hundreds of examples of people who were not so lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryeg7 Posted March 24, 2007 Share Posted March 24, 2007 get used to it, folks. welcome the brave new world created by the patriot act, the culture of fear bred by 9/11 and the trampling of the bill of rights by our 'friends' in washington, both parties. frye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cking Posted March 24, 2007 Author Share Posted March 24, 2007 What irks me and the Victim John is not the conduct of the officers. They were polite, and followed standard tactics, seperating everybody. Later the higher up admitted that they were guessing. Either John was a victim, a member, or deeply involved. It is the lack of real investigation before requesting the search warrant for premise. They choose the low hanging fruit method. What is easier, raid the house or do real investigating. The agency attitude is too bad we ruined your day, and made you the talk of neighborhood. I also blame the judge whose job it is to control the over anxious investigators. I can just here agents, Oh Boy field trip! Lets face it, quality control is not in the goverments dictionary. Nor is taking responsibility. That's whole purpose of committee's nobody to blame. We wonder why people start acting the same way. They are just modeling our leaders. What bothers the victims the most is that NOBODY will put in writing Sorry we were wrong, everybody is in cover my A@s mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted March 24, 2007 Share Posted March 24, 2007 Roy, Sorry for what your friends went through. I'm surprised that they left the doors still standing as heavy as they were rolling. Greg, I'm sure your all over the case and how the Patriot Act was used in the investigation, or rather the lack there of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryeg7 Posted March 24, 2007 Share Posted March 24, 2007 Greg, I'm sure your all over the case and how the Patriot Act was used in the investigation, or rather the lack there of. so the patriot act doesn't violate several of the first 10 amendments? just because this specific case doesn't use the patriot act doesn't mean this is the exact sort of thing the patriot act opens the door to . . . . frye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted March 24, 2007 Share Posted March 24, 2007 You could list just as many stories indicating that officer's were assaulted or killed by "nice" people who wouldn't have hurt anyone. Not condoning anything, just trying to get people to think. I am a police officer and deal with this kind of criticism constantly, I have a thick skin, PM me if you want to discuss it. Thanks. precisely why there's the 2nd amendment... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stubbicatt Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 Just my luck. I get my credit card number stolen and I do the research and give the police the inforamtion and they cant do anything. In another case I nailed a pro having thousands of dollars in merchandise shipped to their newly rented house to many different names. Handed all the info over to the authorities and nothing was done. And this guys sells old records and the swat team comes out. Guess its depends on who wants what done. I would hire a lawyer and go after the judge who signed the warrant. At least make his life hell so he calls those in that sold it to him and rakes them over the coals and maybe he wont be so eager to sign the next one and maybe even points a finger and lays blame somewhere else. There is the issue of judicial and governmental immunity. That lawsuit would be dismissed before the answer was filed. Something to remember is that a judge signed that warrant based on probable cause. The affidavit attached to the warrant might be a fruitful source of information, incluidng where there was a wiretap without authorization... it is very hard to get a wiretap. Although the patriot act might offer some room. This is disturbing. I like the idea of police powers reserved to the States as it says in the Constitution. Too bad J. Edgar got guns issued to his agents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryeg7 Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 Just my luck. I get my credit card number stolen and I do the research and give the police the inforamtion and they cant do anything. In another case I nailed a pro having thousands of dollars in merchandise shipped to their newly rented house to many different names. Handed all the info over to the authorities and nothing was done. And this guys sells old records and the swat team comes out. Guess its depends on who wants what done. I would hire a lawyer and go after the judge who signed the warrant. At least make his life hell so he calls those in that sold it to him and rakes them over the coals and maybe he wont be so eager to sign the next one and maybe even points a finger and lays blame somewhere else. There is the issue of judicial and governmental immunity. That lawsuit would be dismissed before the answer was filed. Something to remember is that a judge signed that warrant based on probable cause. The affidavit attached to the warrant might be a fruitful source of information, incluidng where there was a wiretap without authorization... it is very hard to get a wiretap. Although the patriot act might offer some room. This is disturbing. I like the idea of police powers reserved to the States as it says in the Constitution. Too bad J. Edgar got guns issued to his agents. now the tax agents even carry guns (BATF, IRS) . . . . frye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 now the tax agents even carry guns (BATF, IRS) . . . . http://www.amazon.com/Unintended-Consequen...6039&sr=8-1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 When you cannot defend your rights, you will find you no longer have any rights! It has been proven again and again by the events of the past that the future will bring those past events around again if we don't do whatever it takes to prevent it from happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryeg7 Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 now the tax agents even carry guns (BATF, IRS) . . . . http://www.amazon.com/Unintended-Consequen...6039&sr=8-1 anyone who hasn't read this book should. frye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckbradley Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 When you cannot defend your rights, you will find you no longer have any rights!It has been proven again and again by the events of the past that the future will bring those past events around again if we don't do whatever it takes to prevent it from happening. You cant defend them now anyway, if you do you are looking at the death penalty. Just having the right to arms as protected by the second amendment isnt really enough. If you use it you die. Its really a sad and almost hopeless situation we have. We cant defend our rights because those in authority will punish you if you do. You cant fight it in the legal system because they have protected themselves by passing laws making themselves exempt from legal action(for the most part) so where do we turn. I wish I had an answer. I hope somebody does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 I wish I had an answer. I hope somebody does. I hate to admit it, but Chuck is probably not far from the real truth here ;-( At least for the present, while we still own the means to fight back we can believe resistance to tyranny is somehow possible if we were to need it to happpen. Once we can no longer own the means to resist our "superiors", then we really will be a totally subjugated folk in both mindset AND factual situation. Damn I wish Chuck wasn't telling us like it is. Now I'm kinda' pissed about this whole thing and not enjoying my day off anymore ;-/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckbradley Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 (edited) And to ad to it George. As long as we as a society have our nice homes, cars, toys and live in relative peace & safety with food to feed our children we as a society will not be willing to stand up to tyranny. This is why it has creeped up on us and put us in the position we are in now. Until the average mans standard of living is lowered to a point they have nothing else to loose they will not act. When it gets to that point, we will only have ourselves to blame. And my take on the LEO's just following orders. There has to be a point when the men and women behind those badges know what they are doing is wrong. Hopefully there will be some to stand up to their superiors and refuse to violate citizens rights. The immunity of any person or organization will only breed abuse, misuse and ultimately corruption. It goes against one of the fibers of our society, you are responsible for your actions. Edited March 25, 2007 by chuckbradley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 Yeah, ain't that right. As long as we are comfortable, we will be complacent. And thus we will all be serfs in a fiefdom ruled by the lords and kings of us all. Once we really have no teeth, we will really see the teeth of our "owners", oh yes we will ;-/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 They had to be ready for anything. Hell, the 12 year old coulda thrown collectible records at them like death dealing frizbees..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 Collectible records ? Groovy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 (edited) happily no one died. this time Why couldn't the LE simply wait till the guy leaves for the office, the kids for schools and Mom for shooping. Detain them, ask the questions. Nope, We got a black truck and we got black suits and face masks. We just gots to use em. If dad had come out of the bathroom with a can of spray deodorent, would someone have thought it was a grenade and shot him??? A few years back we had an incident at a local restaurant. Yes, someons was dealing in illegal things, but they raided the place during DINNER! a few dozen people were put at great risk for nothing more than a few headlines. They could have waited till the targets left and picked them up. Same end, but no hoopla in the papers. Anyone remember the aerial bombardment of the home in Philadelphia back in the 70's? Yes, the adults were not a good group of people, burning and but dropping fire bombs and burning an entire city block down is wrong! We really need to beware of White Knights!emember, some of the worst people in history were seen at first as saviours; Hitler, Lenin, Castro all presented first as the saviors of their people. Jim Edited March 26, 2007 by Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 After hearing about this, if they ever drop by to ask me a few questions and they don't bring an armoured personnel carrier and a helo gunship, I'm gonna feel kinda slighted. Actually, I think that's a much safer way to approach my place. Home invaders usually don't have and APC and a Helo gunship. So, I'd probably give them the benefit of the doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 Holy cow, whatta flashback!!! (The Phildelphia thing in the 70s). Wow, they paraded THAT incident back 'n forth across our TV screens for nearly as long as the OJ Simpson debacle....... Jeez. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 And to ad to it George. As long as we as a society have our nice homes, cars, toys and live in relative peace & safety with food to feed our children we as a society will not be willing to stand up to tyranny. This is why it has creeped up on us and put us in the position we are in now. Until the average mans standard of living is lowered to a point they have nothing else to loose they will not act. When it gets to that point, we will only have ourselves to blame. And my take on the LEO's just following orders. There has to be a point when the men and women behind those badges know what they are doing is wrong. Hopefully there will be some to stand up to their superiors and refuse to violate citizens rights. The immunity of any person or organization will only breed abuse, misuse and ultimately corruption. It goes against one of the fibers of our society, you are responsible for your actions. chuck, my friend, you hit it on the nose. but they won't do that-they are too worried about their pension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 If the bad days come...and they well may! ALL men must stand together! as individuals we are nothing!! Together, we are a voice that cant be ignored. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 Collectible records ?Groovy. Now that's punny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 Holy cow, whatta flashback!!! (The Phildelphia thing in the 70s). Wow, they paraded THAT incident back 'n forth across our TV screens for nearly as long as the OJ Simpson debacle....... Jeez. It was 1985 folks...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts