Drawing Gun Before Lamr

[Tom Freeman]

You did the right thing.

I would have done the same.

[maineshootah]

Stage mandated gun start unloaded on a barrel. Previous shooters run has finished scoring, folks are walking back toward the line of fire, still in front of the line 10 feet or so to the shooters left. Shooter who is up is standing in the start box with me the RO next to her. Shooter draws gun and goes to put it on barrel, as soon as I see the gun leave the holster "STOP, STOP". Shooter begins to place it on barrel then puts it back in her holster at which point I inform her she just DQed herself because I had not issued the LAMR command, or anything similar to it, or any command.

Bottom line what is the correct way to deal with this?

You handled it as you should have.

Reaching for someone's firearm to restrain him/her from moving is only asking for more of an issue to develop. If they pull back, you could get swept, if they let go, the gun could be dropped, if they pull away, they could sweep the other folks still down range (in your example). You never know how someone is going to react to having someone else grab for their firearm.

As far as them jumping the commands, after scoring the targets, I try to plant myself in the shooters starting position / box until all tapers/brass pickers are behind the line. Then I step out, towards the targets, to give them a quick check for missing tape and or someone who has not cleared the area. (This all takes about 6 seconds). At which point I welcome the shooter to the box. That way, they are not in the box until I tell/welcome them.

Remember: YOU didn't DQ her, SHE DQ'ed herself.

[rtr]

Thanks for the input folks.

I am very sensitive to making new shooters feel as welcome and comfortable as possible, I still vividly remember my first match. But I feel that safety is important above all else in this sport so I am comfortable with how I handled things and I hope the shooter returns.

[steel1212]

Remember: YOU didn't DQ her, SHE DQ'ed herself.

No matter how many times I hear this its still always true....

Also, put youself in the people's shoes walking back from pasting. If I was walking back and saw somebody drawing for what ever reason I would be a little upset. Secondly, if she doesn't come back because she got a DQ so be it, we ain't playing cards folks.

[Gregory_k]

Can you DQ an RO who gives LAMR when people are down range?

[AlamoShooter]

Can you DQ an RO who gives LAMR when people are down range?

no just take them to the side and Oh! Man! ..their I go with sounding mean again.

[rtr]

FWIW I have now been informed that this shooter did a similar thing (pulled gun before LAMR) at a match several months ago and that the RO did not DQ her at that time.

[ima45dv8]

FWIW I have now been informed that this shooter did a similar thing (pulled gun before LAMR) at a match several months ago and that the RO did not DQ her at that time.

There is a profound lesson to be had here.

[Barrettone]

FWIW I have now been informed that this shooter did a similar thing (pulled gun before LAMR) at a match several months ago and that the RO did not DQ her at that time.

There is a profound lesson to be had here.

I agree, and all the more reason that I feel Troy is right with this, and Britian USA's approach is all wrong. If she didn't learn by getting "cut some slack" back then, then why the heck should you ever even entertain such a notion?

Folks, the rules are the rules. As someone already said..."We ain't playin' golf". These are real guns with the potential to create real injury or even death if our time-tested rules aren't followed to a "T". NROI goes to great lengths to insure consistency in its teachings. (that is why there are only 9 RMI's...so they can get together regularly and get on the same page) I am sure than NONE OF THEM would ever endorse allowing a new competitor to continue participating after they had violated one of our safety rules.

There is a right way and a wrong way to DQ someone as well. Sometimes a hand on the shoulder and a consoling look as well as words of encouragement go a long way in cushioning the blow of a DQ. It is embarrassing, and can be uncomfortable, but I've found that if it is done with understanding and compassion, that newbies will take it in stride and return for the next match. They want to learn, but giving them a major league umpire: "Yer outta here!!!" is not acceptable either. Explaining the situation and why they have to be DQ'd will often lead to them wanting to get better and return again.

Newbies are an important part of the game. We need them to grow the sport, and this usually happens at the local level. For information purposes, Sedro still has the eqipment check and "coach-thru" passes available for distribution. All you need to do is call and ask. I think Val handles it, since they are in the new club packets. She sent me about 300 of them when I requested them last year.

I would encourage all clubs to look into starting a "new shooter program". We modeled ours after Eric Lunds out of the Cherokee gun club in Georgia. USPSA has a DVD of his class, and it is quite helpful and a great jumping-off point. It can also be condensed to about a 20-30 minute orientation that can be invaluable to newbies at their first match (and you can easily do it right before the match). You couple that with a good mentoring program (putting them with an experienced shooter), and usually, this guidance will get them through that all-important first match safely.

As Troy said, all these things need to be done UP FRONT. That way, you never get to the point of having to DQ the new guy (or at least you minimize the chances). Complacency in dealing with new guys at the club level is a failure on the part of the host club. If you don't do these things, YOU are setting them up for failure. If the club administers things properly, you won't get to that point. Point is, be pro-active about things, and don't put your RO in a position where they have to be the bad guy.

Edited March 13, 2007 by Barrettone

[JFD]

I've been cut some slack at least twice in the last few years.

In both cases I know they were trying to be nice guys, but now that I know more about the sport I don't feel they did me any favors.

Sweeping myself was a BAD thing. Maybe if I had been DQed they would have explained what sweeping actually meant (my 2nd match).

Catching a dropped and loaded gun was a BAD thing for sure. I was allowed to get away with it with hardly any excitement. Had I been DQed I feel I would have had sense enough not to repeat the process 3 years later where the loaded gun was pointing at the RO when I caught it. At least I had sense enough to keep my hand flat and just trapped the gun.

While I've pretty much given up on ever hearing proper range commands, I don't think too highly of clubs that ignore our safety rules or change them to suit what they think is correct. As a former member of our club's BOD, I know for a fact that such things will most definitely get discussed and give excellent ammunition to the anti-USPSA folks at the club.

We're playing a game that involves loaded guns. Safety rules should be followed to the letter.

[BlackSabbath]

Having started shooting pistol matches in 1989, I'm on the side of following the safety rules to the letter of the rule book, and here's why:

Let's say the RO "cut the shooter some slack", and he/she isn't DQ'ed for a safety infraction. A stage or two later the same shooter that was cut said slack has another safety issue and someone is injured, or, even killed.

Ask yourself this:

Do you really want to be that RO? You, the range, your club and the sport will all be held accountable. There will be heavy civil penalties too pay. And criminal...well I'd hate too find out. And, you may as well turn in your USPSA card because I doubt anyone will want you around, that is---IF there is a sport to still participate in after your negligence.

You have no right to do that to your fellow shooters.

I love this sport. I love new shooters. For these reasons, I.Will.Follow.The.Rules.

Edited March 13, 2007 by BlackSabbath

[stevepitt]

Quote from rtr-

Per the notion of not DQing her, I happened to be on the other end of a very similar incident once where I was the guy walking back to the firing line when the shooter pulled his gun before LAMR. That shooter was not DQed and upon asking around if that was a good call the consensus seemed to be that it wasn't.

In the above- rtr was gracious enough to not say who the RO was. For the record, I was the RO in the above incident. RTR, that incident still haunts me. I didn't DQ the shooter, but did take him aside and explain what he did, noting he should have been DQ's

As a result of this incident, several of us in the section had a conversation about how slack a lot of us were getting in regards to safety. The shooter in question made the same mistake at a later match, and was DQ'd that time.

I definitely agree with Troy that safety comes first, and should not be compromised.

Steve Pitt

p.s.- rtr, you have my sincere apology for the way I handled that incident. (and yes, I know you weren't posting this for that reason).

[eerw]

RTR

We had a couple of the new shooters in our squad get anxious too on that same stage...and have to tell them to stop as their hand went to the gun..fortunately they did listen and did not draw the gun before the LAMR.

one of them on a later stage..took off his gunbelt with gun still in the holster while standing on the stage..he got a quick command to stop and was escorted to a safe area where he was instructed in proper safety..

Hey Steve...how's Costa Rica??? staying out of trouble I hope..

[BlackSabbath]

Quote from rtr-

Per the notion of not DQing her, I happened to be on the other end of a very similar incident once where I was the guy walking back to the firing line when the shooter pulled his gun before LAMR. That shooter was not DQed and upon asking around if that was a good call the consensus seemed to be that it wasn't.

In the above- rtr was gracious enough to not say who the RO was. For the record, I was the RO in the above incident. RTR, that incident still haunts me. I didn't DQ the shooter, but did take him aside and explain what he did, noting he should have been DQ's

As a result of this incident, several of us in the section had a conversation about how slack a lot of us were getting in regards to safety. The shooter in question made the same mistake at a later match, and was DQ'd that time.

I definitely agree with Troy that safety comes first, and should not be compromised.

Steve Pitt

p.s.- rtr, you have my sincere apology for the way I handled that incident. (and yes, I know you weren't posting this for that reason).

This post is a great example of someone who can learn from their mistakes. Good one Steve.

[richardschennberg]

If you've RO'd enough shooters, this will eventually happen. My personal preference is to give LAMR as soon as I am satisfied that all targets are taped, movers and steel reset, and everyone is back from downrange. At least once I gave LAMR as the competitor was reaching for the gun, and I waited till after the stage, range clear to warn him about waiting for LAMR. I always assist the shooter as long as it is safe.

I am always ready to yell STOP and that has so far kept anyone from drawing with anyone still downrange. If somehow a competitor manages to draw with no range command and I had not yet verified downrange free of range personnel, the commands are: "STOP! Reholster!"

A draw without a range command is a Match DQ. Do everything possible to keep DQable offenses from happening, but do not compromise on safety rules.

[jrguar]

+1 on the match DQ, several years ago while working an area match I had a guy start to pull his gun as he stepped into the start box, I yelled stop before he cleared his holster, I got him and myself settled down gave him the quick little lecture and went on to run him.

Now, when I am working a match I try to keep people out of the start box/position till I am ready for them.

[JThompson]

Yell STOP. Never touch the competitor or the gun unless it's an absolute last resort.

I like to do what Flex does, namely get in front until it's time to issue the LAMR command.

Troy

+1

There is no telling what someone will do when you make contact.

As a new IPSC shooter, I agree with some form of orientation class before shooting. If we are going to make safety our top priority, how can we do this without giving a new shooter the tools with which, they can attain the goal? A new shooter, without some form of orientation/instruction is going to be unsafe. If not unsafe than they will break rules they no nothing of.... Therefore, if the top priority is safety, there is no way someone who has never worn a holster or shot IPSC type events, should ever enter a range to do so without some form of instruction on how to do it safe.

Edited April 9, 2007 by JThompson

[38superman]

I found this thread very interesting because I just took the Level 1 RO course and we discussed several points regarding this situation.

First, this competitor should have received a DQ.

This was the right thing to do.

Secondly, we were told never to touch the shooter except in dire circumstances.

Stop command seems adequate in this situation.

Third, Proper range commands were stressed and stressed again.

"so I clear my throat and say OK...but before I could even begin to say LAMR,"

Okay is not a stage command.

I don't think it will ever be a good feeling to send a shooter home, especially a newbie.

However, every effort has to be made to enforce the rules uniformly.

If you let a shooter slide, how is that fair to the ones that didn't get a break?

Tls

Edited April 10, 2007 by tlshores

[Jim Norman]

At our club, we run a twice monthly introduction to USPSA and practice match. We strongly urge new shooters to attend this before they go to the "real match". At the monthly "real" match they get placed on a squad or squads with shooters that will mentor them carefully and watch the

and keep a close eye on them.

We have sadly had to issue the DQ call on a few even with this. It is always our hope to stop the new shooter from making the error not to call them on it. By talking them through each stage and being right there with them we have a good track record.

Jim