Reloading

[GmanCdp]

the best way to answer the question is while going thru a walk thru of the COF..just ask the SO up front....

[benny hill]

We will have traveling SO's in the match & no two will probley do it the same. IDPA needs more cut & dried rules with less grey area or more leave it up to the shooter & not the SO.

[RickB]

It should be addressed in the printed stage procedure. Anything that blocks the view of a target can be considered cover, unless the contrary is spelled out; why keep 'em guessing?

[Singlestack Wonder]

Benny:

If you are moving in an open area and shoot dry, if cover a available either at the position you left or the position you are going to, you must be behind it to reload, period. This has nothing to do with "Real Life" or "we do it this way because USPSA does it another way", its just the rule, plain and simple.

Welcome to IDPA!

When will we see a Benny Hill designed IDPA single stack for ESP and CDP?

Edited March 7, 2007 by Singlestack Wonder

[benny hill]

I have been building them for years now & most of the local shooters use them. Thanks for clearing things up & by the way I won my first match overall 85 sec. to second places 115sec. on 5 stages useing a glock mod. 17 I went through.

[Duane Thomas]

The way I have always seen it enforced is that you have to haul ass to the next cover position and reload there rather than begin reloading while moving, since the rules state that all reloads must be started and finished behind cover. This, and the pocketing of an empty mag during a RWR, are the two rules that, when I tell them to new shooters and they look at me and say, "Well, that's suicidally stupid," I can't really argue.

It should be addressed in the printed stage procedure. Anything that blocks the view of a target can be considered cover, unless the contrary is spelled out; why keep 'em guessing?

That makes sense to me. But certain SOs have, shall we say, a differing interpretation. Personally, what gripes me is people reading into or interpreting, i.e. adding to, the rules. Again, if it was meant to be a rule, it would be spelled out in the Rule Book. If it's not in the Rule Book, if you can't point to a rule that says "You can't do this," it's not a rule.

And when I ask, "Can you show me that in the Rule Book?" I've gotten two replies that stick in my mind. (1) "I don't have a copy of the Rule Book with me." (Now there's a surprise.) (2) "No." Let me hasten to add, that's not "No, I can't show it to you in the Rule Book" (though of course they can't because it's not there). That's "No" as in "No, you can't do it." Period. Not "No, I can justify that according to the Rule Book." Not "I can point to the rule that says you can't do that." Just "No." Jesus wept.

Any way the, ahem! club president could clarify to SOs that, yes, we are allowed to reload while moving in IDPA? Because that's something a lot of people seem to be unclear about.

[AlamoShooter]

O.K. , I got from the replies that as long as I am behind a wall, I can RWR as I move along behind it behind cover. The next question is on an upcomming stage where you engage three targets from cover & as you move to another cover about 10 yds away you engage a target w/ hardcover while moveing. With a single stack I will shoot the first three 2 times each & the hardcover 3 times on the move. QUESTION, I now am at slide lock , out in the open with 20' left to run. Do I haul ass w/ a empty gun to cover or stop in the OPEN & reload or reload on the move? Does'nt make much sense to run all that way w/ an empty gun.

its ok ...if you don't win or is it ok to do, if you don't win

[Duane Thomas]

With a single stack I will shoot the first three 2 times each & the hardcover 3 times on the move.

Why hit the hard cover three times?

[Ben Stoeger]

We will have traveling SO's in the match & no two will probley do it the same. IDPA needs more cut & dried rules with less grey area or more leave it up to the shooter & not the SO.

Benny,

Both of the issues you asked about are addressed in the Rulebook. Reloading behind cover is found on 43, and the rule that you cannot start to reload untill you are behind cover is found on page 42.

Later,

Ben Stoeger

[benny hill]

Duane, I shoot anything w/ hardcover while running 3 times because murphy alway's has control of one of them & I need 2 hits.

[bigbrowndog]

Benny............Benny..............Benny,

I ask the "SO" how he wants me to shoot the stage, take my hits and FTDR's and leave for the next stage. The last match I shot the rules were different for every stage. My favorite was the stage where everyone was running 30yds from cover to cover, so they could shoot bad guys from 10yds, I shot the bad guys from 40yds, saved 10-15 secs. was labeled "a gamer" and carried that moniker with pride for the rest of the day!!!!!!!

I even asked the SO, beforehand, "all I have to do is remain behind cover......right"

Trapr

[p99shooter]

Benny............Benny..............Benny,

I ask the "SO" how he wants me to shoot the stage, take my hits and FTDR's and leave for the next stage. The last match I shot the rules were different for every stage. My favorite was the stage where everyone was running 30yds from cover to cover, so they could shoot bad guys from 10yds, I shot the bad guys from 40yds, saved 10-15 secs. was labeled "a gamer" and carried that moniker with pride for the rest of the day!!!!!!!

I even asked the SO, beforehand, "all I have to do is remain behind cover......right"

Trapr

You shot an illegal stage. Page 12

CoF 3. Shooter movement of more than ten (10) yards between

firing points and fifteen (15) yards total movement in a string

of fire is not permitted.

[revchuck]

Benny............Benny..............Benny,

I ask the "SO" how he wants me to shoot the stage, take my hits and FTDR's and leave for the next stage. The last match I shot the rules were different for every stage. My favorite was the stage where everyone was running 30yds from cover to cover, so they could shoot bad guys from 10yds, I shot the bad guys from 40yds, saved 10-15 secs. was labeled "a gamer" and carried that moniker with pride for the rest of the day!!!!!!!

I even asked the SO, beforehand, "all I have to do is remain behind cover......right"

Trapr

You shot an illegal stage. Page 12

CoF 3. Shooter movement of more than ten (10) yards between

firing points and fifteen (15) yards total movement in a string

of fire is not permitted.

Actually, the way he shot it, it was legal. If his marksmanship skills are up to the task, it's a better tactical solution as well.

I guess this is what happens when course designers want to give the shooters something different without bouncing the CoF off the rulebook, or at least another experienced shooter. Then again, the situation might be that everyone shows up to shoot, and one guy/gal gets stuck with coming up with the CoFs. That can get old in a hurry.

I like CoFs like this. That's why I keep my USPSA membership current too, so I can shoot them in USPSA matches.

[Scooter]

Maybe he shot it correctly and everyone else screwed up since he didn't move 30 yards.

[kdmoore]

Darnit, beaten to the punch by Scooter

Benny............Benny..............Benny,

I ask the "SO" how he wants me to shoot the stage, take my hits and FTDR's and leave for the next stage. The last match I shot the rules were different for every stage. My favorite was the stage where everyone was running 30yds from cover to cover, so they could shoot bad guys from 10yds, I shot the bad guys from 40yds, saved 10-15 secs. was labeled "a gamer" and carried that moniker with pride for the rest of the day!!!!!!!

I even asked the SO, beforehand, "all I have to do is remain behind cover......right"

Trapr

You shot an illegal stage. Page 12

CoF 3. Shooter movement of more than ten (10) yards between

firing points and fifteen (15) yards total movement in a string

of fire is not permitted.

Another way to see this is that bbd shot it the only way to make it a legal stage ..... Next time you can reply with .. Gee, thought everyone knew the rules. Didn't want to game a stage by moving too close because the amount of movement was illegal .... J/K

Benny, even given the fact that the traveling SO with another squad may allow different actions, you are still better off asking yours and just following what he says. Later, if you find that other SO's allowed reloads out in the open you can complain about the uneven application.

FWIW, Like others have said, locally we would be required to retreat to previous cover, or advance to next cover before beginning the reload. I think the terms "available cover" means anywhere on that stage, even if it's way far a way.

Thems the rules. I don't know what the street rules would be. I don't think it's crazy to consider weaving/running to a covered position a viable tactic in the RW vs concentrating on a reload with incoming fire. But it is mute, as that's not within the perview of this forum. And it won't change the rules which aren't always based on RW tactics, but sometimes based on leveling the playing field (10 round mags) or forcing an action (shooting to slidelock is rewarded).

But what constantly drags us back to the RW discussion are the SO's who quote tactics vs rules.

Newb: why am I putting a mag with 3 rounds into my pocket?

BadSO: because you never want to leave ammo behind in the RW. Imagine you are in a crowded mall when ..... [5 minutes later] and the 9th gangbanger finds you with an empty gun!

GoodSO: Cuz the rules of IDPA require it.

Edited March 7, 2007 by kdmoore

[p99shooter]

I guess that point I was trying to make is that an SO shouldn't be arguing rules with you on a stage that was illegal to begin with.

[bkeeler]

Do you have to do a RWR if the mag is empty but a round is still in the chamber?

BK

[GmanCdp]

Do you have to do a RWR if the mag is empty but a round is still in the chamber?

BK

GoodSO: Cuz the rules of IDPA require it.

[Flexmoney]

Benny, even given the fact that the traveling SO with another squad may allow different actions, you are still better off asking yours and just following what he says. Later, if you find that other SO's allowed reloads out in the open you can complain about the uneven application.

I can't help but find this funny. This isn't a dig on IDPA at all, and I do agree with asking the SO first, but when i read that...all that popped into my mind was:

Come shoot the match...you can complain later.

That just struck me as funny. No offense meant.

[GmanCdp]

Benny, even given the fact that the traveling SO with another squad may allow different actions, you are still better off asking yours and just following what he says. Later, if you find that other SO's allowed reloads out in the open you can complain about the uneven application.

I can't help but find this funny. This isn't a dig on IDPA at all, and I do agree with asking the SO first, but when i read that...all that popped into my mind was:

Come shoot the match...you can complain later.

That just struck me as funny. No offense meant.

Come shoot the match...you can complain later.

ie:after the stage is shot...quit often[not really ] ,this truley happens,then, you get in a big cluster @#@#$% with the SO and then the MD...sometime it seems that in an idpa match,no matter how many times you can go over a stage/cof,think it's bullet proof,and then BAM a shooter will make a mistake,then blame it on the COF//or make a mistake and the OTHER gang will pickup on it and take it to the SO's.. it seems like it's not getting any better,not saying i'm the one doing all the questioning,it's just as a fact,if you go to enough state matches,then it seems like something always pops up.[which is good,keeps everybody on guard ]......but then most of the time,it was the shooters mistake, not understanding the COF,or it was in fact a problem with the COF,then the COF usually get tossed for the match....but yet again [insert joke] it seems like going to some matches,it's like watching 2 little league teams fighting for the nationals, and that my freind is called competition..........man this is a fun sport

[Joe D]

Gman, I have a couple of CDP friendly stages waiting for you at our State Match - 18 rds each.

[Duane Thomas]

Do you have to do a RWR if the mag is empty but a round is still in the chamber?

If you reload before shooting to slidelock, you can do either a RWR or a tac-load.

[Lee Bell]

Benny............Benny..............Benny,

I ask the "SO" how he wants me to shoot the stage, take my hits and FTDR's and leave for the next stage. The last match I shot the rules were different for every stage. My favorite was the stage where everyone was running 30yds from cover to cover, so they could shoot bad guys from 10yds, I shot the bad guys from 40yds, saved 10-15 secs. was labeled "a gamer" and carried that moniker with pride for the rest of the day!!!!!!!

I even asked the SO, beforehand, "all I have to do is remain behind cover......right"

Trapr

I would have labeled you a good shot and clearly said so.

I don't shoot IDPA (yet), but I've done the same thing (but not at 40 yards) in USPSA. In my case, it was a matter of minimizing time spent reloading (Single Stack). There's a strong tendency for everyone to shoot each target from whatever position is closest to the target. Except where specified in the stage description, that's not always a winning stragegy. Of course, every shooter must know his limitations (thanks for the quote Clint). Mine do not include a shot from 40 yards away.

Lee

[bigbrowndog]

Lee, it would if you had shot uspsa production/open nationals last year.

Trapr

[RickB]

Benny............Benny..............Benny,

I ask the "SO" how he wants me to shoot the stage, take my hits and FTDR's and leave for the next stage. The last match I shot the rules were different for every stage. My favorite was the stage where everyone was running 30yds from cover to cover, so they could shoot bad guys from 10yds, I shot the bad guys from 40yds, saved 10-15 secs. was labeled "a gamer" and carried that moniker with pride for the rest of the day!!!!!!!

I even asked the SO, beforehand, "all I have to do is remain behind cover......right"

Trapr

That's just lousy course design. Assuming it was a scenario CoF, how could running thirty yards, and shooting from forty yards, both satisfy the procedure? I've never shot an "as visible" scenario.