Idpa Rookie - Again

[dirtypool40]

Guys; thanks for all the help on my "which gun to shoot" thread.

The match is next weekend. I haven't shot much IDPA in the past few years, but look forward to getting back into it locally at least. I love the gun and miss the guys I started with.

Anyhoo, Duane has me intrigued about a way to simplfy my game plan so I don't get stung. Decide NOW that I will not try to master RWR or any other game specific technique and just ALWAYS shoot the gun to slide lock.

If you were not a dedicated IDPA-er and wanted to be competitive through consistency and points, would you try this? Is this a viable strategy? Being an IPSC guy, it wil be easier to train than the bob out and back RWR stuff. I used to be pretty good at that, but the serious IDPA-ers are leaving me in the dust.

Slide Lock or not to Lock??? RWR????

What would you do?

Thanks....

[Headshot45]

Eric, keep it simple......only perform reloads at Slide Lock....UNLESS the COF has a round count bias in the last part of the stage. In other words, if the COF has you engaging 3 targets from Point A and moving to Point B where there are 4 targets...in that case, just like on the street, take out mag and put in a fresh one. If the movement is always behind cover do it in this order, take out old, put in pocket, and draw new one as you are coming out of pocket, seat mag, and right about now you are at Point B, BANG....

If there is no cover between Point A and Point B, then you would do a Tac reload from A like this....bring up new mag, take out old mag, seat new mag, RUN LIKE HELL to Point B while putting away old mag......as long as you seated the new mag from behind cover it is considered to be a completed reload......see? Simple....

see you next week

Frank

[dirtypool40]

woof, IDPA is more complex than I imagined.

[JFD]

Shooting to slide lock with a 9+1 .38 Super is my general game plan. The reloading differences between the 2 sports is the hardest thing about shooting IDPA to me.

With my IDPA rig I keep my barney mag in my back pocket. If I have to perform a RWR, I just go through my barney procedure in reverse in terms of ditching that partial mag. At least I practice that several times a match.

I really don't practice RWR too much at all. I think of all the things we do in the shooting sports, this is the most likely thing to get me hurt if I was to "program" the skill. I've got enough sense to utilize cover in a gunfight, but I'll be speed loading my butt off if the situation ever requires a reload.

In certain situations while shooting IDPA I'll go into "auto-pilot" and speed load without thinking about it. It's easy to spot by the number of bad words I'll be using the second I realize what I've done. However it really suits me fine that a speed load is my "default setting". I don't ever want to "auto-pilot" a RWR.

Unfortunately I don't think this is the way to get to the top of the heap in IDPA. If you're serious about being competitive in IDPA you should really make sure a RWR doeesn't become a "stage killer" for you.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: I would shoot to slide lock. It makes life simple and you can worry about your shot placement instead. Accuracy is the game in IDPA over blazing speed. Coming back from USPSA you will have to slow down a little bit (just a little) and still run fast. One other thing is that everytime you handle a magazine with rounds in it you have a chance to drop it and lose points. If you shoot to slide lock drop that mag and no points lost. Does that make sense? Hope this helps. Thanks Eric

[Nik Habicht]

woof, IDPA is more complex than I imagined.

As a bonus --- since the stages are limited to 18 rounds, you're burning a shorter program than you would for a 32 round stage; that typically makes it easier for me to remember not to dump the mag on the ground....

[dirtypool40]

Thanks, good points all.

I don't want to lose focus on IPSC and become an IDPA specialist, but I'll admit I like to play hard and score well. I think unless the COF requires it, I'll try the Slide Lock load.

The thing is, a good speed in IPSC is the same, down damned few, so if I can stay under control that shouldn't be a problem. You figure a good run on a 20 round stage in IPSC will put you down 3-7 points, all "Charlies" or -1's in IDPA, and cut that in half for the normal IDPA stage and maybe down 2-4 I think it's pretty close.

If I can find the circle (a little higher and wider than our A-zone) I just try to act like that's the only thing I can hit. At .5 sec / point you can make up -1's and come out ahead if you're quick.

That's kinda the one bad habit in IDPA I don't want to pick up. Not to open that can of worms, but the hf / scoring in USPSA "self adjusts" and since IDPA is kinda like shooting a set hf, you have to be more careful and actually can fall into visually scoring the targets. That's my bad habit I fight all the time.

That and course creativity, I'm used to looking for a better, more fluid way to do things. I'll be squadded with some more experienced IDPA guys, so they'll show me what I can do.

.

[chrisa006]

Always go to slide lock!!!! Very seldom, a long piece of hard cover to do a reload with retention, is available to save a standing slide lock reload. I have won Smith & Wesson Winter Championships in expert division, in both ssp & esp and have never saved enough doing anything other than slide lock to make a possible bobble worth it.

[kruger]

You need two reloads, a Slide Lock Reload (SLR) and a Reload With Retention (RWR).

Practice the SLR alot, and visit the RWR on occasion. The two are similar enough that

many of the physical skills learned with one will help the other.

The SLR is used almost all the time. The RWR is used far more rarely. Aside from

mandated uses like the ones found in the classifier, the biggest use for RWR's is when

you have engaged some targets from cover, leave cover to proceed to the next cover

and have to engage further targets while moving. Since you can't reload while away from

cover, running dry while shooting on the move is a _bad_ thing, ergo, get the gun fully

loaded before shooting on the move.

Since the advent of the new rulebook, you don't need both a RWR and a Tactical Reload (TR).

Since the RWR is faster, less error prone, and very simliar in motions to the SLR, it is a better

option than a TR.

Respectfully,

Mark Kruger

[MichiganShootist]

I shoot an average of 4 IDPA matches and 8 organized practice sessions a month... and have run stages at a number of state and regional championships.

I don't personally believe that "always going to slide lock" ---- or----"always do a RWR"---is good advice. It depends on the course of fire.

There are many times when moving from position A to B that you are behind cover and can complete a RWR without adding any time. If that is the case you are always better off to arrive at point B with a topped off gun. Just like a run and gun USPSA reload..between shooting boxes..... only retain the mag.

Standing --- static reloads (from slide lock or not) take excess time.

The shooter above indicated a great point... at indoor matches there are far fewer positions which give the advantage to the RWR because there is much less movement compared to outdoor range matches.

[dirtypool40]

Good point, I need to clarify. This is an outdoor match, various amount of movement.

You're right though, moving along a long wall after you've engaged an array and have plenty of time, then I would feel fine hitting a RWR.

Heat of the moment I'm a SLR guy.

Edited February 23, 2007 by dirtypool40

[MichiganShootist]

So..If during that movement you are behind cover and can do a RWR without adding a bunch of time.... DO IT...... if not shoot it dry.

In the space of 5 or 6 feet of movement (say running behind a car)....you should be able to do a RWR... Just stuff that partially spent mag in a pocket and then do your normal USPSA speed load.

[TxD]

Good point, I need to clarify. This is an outdoor match, various amount of movement.

You're right though, moving along a long wall after you've engaged an array and have plenty of time, then I would feel fine hitting a RWR.

Heat of the moment I'm a SLR guy.

DP.

I predict about 6 procedurals, Those mags are going to be hitting the ground.

Then there's that pie thing.

Just kidding. Have a great match.

[chrisa006]

If you do the RWR when you stick the mag in the pocket also push the vest back to clear the next mag in one motion. I see many people pocket the mag than grab the vest or knife hand it to get to the reload mag. You can pocket and clear the vest all in one motion saving a little time.

[Jim Watson]

I shoot to slide lock unless the CoF mandates a RWR/Tac Load.

I have a "don't walk while chewing gum" level of coordination and seldom find a stage that I can do an elective RWR efficiently.

I agree that the RWR is less fumble prone, but I practiced the Tac Load so hard when it could be specified to the exclusion of the RWR that I still find myself doing one if I don't plan it out in advance.

By the way, when you shoot to slide lock and go to cover to reload you must:

1. Be under cover to even drop the empty magazine.

2. Have a fresh magazine seated before you leave cover.

3. Have the partial magazine stowed before you fire again. (Applies to Tac Load, doesn't come up with RWR.)

[Catfish]

In many moons of IDPA shooting, I found that rarely is it worth it time wise to do a RWR/Tac load/whatever you want to call it.

Sometimes, yes. Most of the time, no. IF, and it's a big IF you hit the RWR right, then it's worth it. However, the mess up factor is high - especially if you're not used to doing them and when it goes bad, it goes BAD.

I'd just use the KISS method, shoot to slide lock and not worry about it.

[Merlin Orr]

Good point, I need to clarify. This is an outdoor match, various amount of movement.

You're right though, moving along a long wall after you've engaged an array and have plenty of time, then I would feel fine hitting a RWR.

Heat of the moment I'm a SLR guy.

DP.

I predict about 6 procedurals, Those mags are going to be hitting the ground.

Then there's that pie thing.

Just kidding. Have a great match.

Man..ain't it the truth. I always plan my type of reload ...and then dump it on the ground and speedload.

[eerw]

I like slide lock reloads...keeps things really simple...

I actually did a reload with retention the last match and ended being about .5 seconds slower on the stage that the guy that did a slide lock reload..

[Singlestack Wonder]

That's kinda the one bad habit in IDPA I don't want to pick up. Not to open that can of worms, but the hf / scoring in USPSA "self adjusts" and since IDPA is kinda like shooting a set hf, you have to be more careful and actually can fall into visually scoring the targets. That's my bad habit I fight all the time.

Don't try to relate the IDPA scoring to USPSA's hit factor scoring. IDPA always requires accurate shots, period. Hosing targets faster in an attempt to make up points down is a poor strategy doomed to failure. Accuracy is what it takes to win in IDPA.

[tnpyeron3]

I've been shooting CDP for the last couple of months and I realized that I've had to do more RWR than I had planned and I'm glad I practice them once in a while.

Case in point at the S&W Winter Champs on stage 2: Course of fire required you to shoot 2 threats near to far, slice the pie on the next 2 and then move to a tree, push it down and engage a fairly quick drop turner w/ 2 rounds and then continue on with the rest of the course.

Well, my slide lock reloads are fast, but not that fast on that drop turner. A RWR before moving to the tree was the only reload I could think would work and it did.(I figured round dumping was not even an option.) I cleared the stage in 26 seconds, down 0.

So, bottom line, I practice them every now and again but I don't beat myself up doing it.

[ScottNH]

Case in point at the S&W Winter Champs on stage 2: Course of fire required you to shoot 2 threats near to far, slice the pie on the next 2 and then move to a tree, push it down and engage a fairly quick drop turner w/ 2 rounds and then continue on with the rest of the course.

Well, my slide lock reloads are fast, but not that fast on that drop turner. A RWR before moving to the tree was the only reload I could think would work and it did.(I figured round dumping was not even an option.) I cleared the stage in 26 seconds, down 0.

Actually, round dumping was an option on that stage. With T3 and T4 a little farther back, and in the low-light, no one was going to get on you for a third "make sure" shot on T3 or T4. And since you only had to "dump" one round to make the SLR work, it wasn't like you were hosing rounds off.

[dirtypool40]

IDPA always requires accurate shots, period. Hosing targets faster in an attempt to make up points down is a poor strategy doomed to failure. Accuracy is what it takes to win in IDPA.

I could replace "IDPA" with "USPSA" and that paragraph would be just as true. I didn't start this thread to argue about that stuff, let's stay on topic or they'll close us down.

Thanks for the input though, you're right, I need to hang onto the points.

[baa]

I shoot a lot of USPSA each month and help run/shoot one IDPA match a month (the one in Ruskin, FL) I have been playing around with what makes more sense to do as a USPSA shooter when it comes to planning my IDPA reload strategy:

I pretty much decide to shoot to slide lock and keep it simple. Why? First in foremost, slide lock reloads are not slow if you know you are going to go to slide lock. What typically makes the SLR slow is the time it takes one to recognize the pistol is at slide lock. If your planning (gaming being a verboten term in IDPA) your stage out well, you know when you hit slide lock, even if you don't dump an extra round to hit an even number of targets before reloading. If you know your going to reload, you will do it quickly and should be able to reload your single stack about as fast as you can do a normal "USPSA" reload (depending on how fast you can hit the slide release.) Remember also that you do not have to be under cover if you are only exposed to the target you hit with 1 round. It is at that point considered engaged. So, again your not really losing time. Sure, you can get all tricky with a retention reload while behind cover, but ask yourself this: is the (minimal) time you save doing a RWR worth the risk of a fumble?

Which is not to say you shouldn't spend 1 hour this week practicing your RWR skills, prior to the IDPA state match. I am willing to bet there will be at least 1, if not more stages which require a retention reload. I just won't plan to use this much (if at all) during the scenerio stages.

I wish I was able to shoot the FL state IDPA match! I literally had to choose which week I wanted to travel for work- The week of the IDPA match or the week of the USPSA match. I chose the second, but sure wish I could shoot both.

Kick some butt!

Edited February 26, 2007 by baa

[kdmoore]

Good advice here. If you are on of the .0001% of shooters who never gets confused after a buzzer, or go on autopilot, I think you should know all three as there are times that one may favor the other two. But they are very rare, especially with the new rule book discouraging mandatory reloads in all but the classifier.

For the rest of us mortals, There just isn't enough to be gained to justify being a master of all three.

Personally, I stick to the SL reload, breaking out the RWR on the rare occasion I think it benefits my score. As the excellent example above, there are times that you better get to some reload before a dissappearing target appears with a barely loaded gun. For something as trivial as avoiding a reload in the middle of a target, I usually don't bother.

I can't speak to how SL reloads will hurt your USPSA performance, but here's what I'd do. Practice the RWR until it's about .5 seconds slower than your SL reload, and be done. Now, figure how many steps it takes to get the reload done. With that info, you'll always know if it's worth it. (does it save enough time, can I get it done behind cover by the time I traverse, etc.)

Enjoy the game!

[p99shooter]

About the only times that a reload with retention could save you any time or grief are

-> when not reloading prior to leaving cover could cause you to run empty while out in the open.

-> when there is movement between positions of cover that allows you to take advantage of the "tac reload", where you can take off running as soon as the mag is seated, and stow the partially spend one while moving. You may not gain much here.

-> when you could possibly run dry while kneeling or prone, which makes it a little difficult to reload from pouches behind the centerline of your body.

On all other occasions, shoot to slide lock. It is the fastest, least fumble-prone method.