The Draw

[Jody Waring]

One thing I have never had is a smooth draw. On a close target, I can easily hit an A in a second. On extremely close range, .80 is probally the fastest I've ever had. I am not talking 100% of the time though. BUT,.... a consistent, smooth draw is something I have yet to master. A while ago I borrowed a friends set of "The Burner Series" and I love the 'scoop' draw Jerry does. I watched it over and over, tried it, practiced it,...live fire on the range, and I felt way more sloppy than usual. What I noticed the most is me not getting my thumb around the grip as I snap the gun out, from there is where I fumble as I make the grip on the way up. I have pretty broad hands, but shorter fingers. Its like if you can imagine I can't "swing" my thumb over the beavertail as I grab the gun. My question is, is there a hand position (thumb) you guys use that draw this way that allows you to grab the gun better? I know I probally sound silly, its just I could show you, I just have a hard time explaining it. I hope to someday break into master class, but I feel I am limited in my ambitions if I can't get this down first. Appreciate any insight and advice. Maybe I am better off coming up, and then down on the gun, it just seems more efficient to me to do the "scoop" on the way up. Thanks.

[SmittyFL]

Maybe I am better off coming up, and then down on the gun, it just seems more efficient to me to do the "scoop" on the way up. Thanks.

Bingo!!

.7's and .8's are cool but they ain't going to win you the match. Consistency is the key.

An A at 10yds in one second is plenty sufficient for our game.

[Flexmoney]

Burkett (Brian carries the DVD) covers coming into the gun from the side...I think of it sorta like "leather slap".

It allows the same grab no matter if you are starting with a hands up or down.

Try it backwards. Get you grip on the gun while it is in the holster. Then just open your hand (fingers) without moving your hand away from the gun. Now, just move you hand laterally...an inch or two to the side of the gun. From there, move your hand to the require start position.

See if you don't like that better than the scoop or coming down on the gun.

Then, as Smitty says...get to working on something that needs more work. You don't need any more draw speed to compete at the Master level or higher. You do need to be solid.

[Jody Waring]

Thanks for the replies guys. You're right a sec. definitely is sufficient, especially if its a consistent one. Flex, I'm going to give that a try and see how it goes. Spring thaw is a while away here, so I can spend some time dry firing and see if I cant get this down to where I'm happy with my draw. Thanks.

[LPatterson]

The only way to shoot A's under a second consistantly is to grip the gun the same on every shot. Brian has talked about sometimes missing a draw(smoothly) and having to correct before the shot which loses the time saved by the really fast draw.

Burkett talks about starting the gun in the firing position and lowering it back to the holster to hands off and slowly back to a firing position.

Jarrett talks about moving the weak hand to the stomach area while the strong hand is making the grip & how the weak hand meets the strong hand on the way out so it can never get in front of the gun.

Steve Anderson's Refinement & Repetition and a mirror is a great training aid because it lets you see what the gun looks like after a too quick sloppy draw against the timer.

As an instructor I talk a lot better than I shoot because I have trouble getting smooth draws under 1.2 but I understand the basics and hope to impart the information to my students.

[MichiganShootist]

I took a half day class from TGO a couple years ago.

He teaches that you should always come down on the gun. His reasoning was...

1. That's the only way to be 100% positive your hand is in a shooting grip position when you grasp the gun (and in a high hand position)

2. The scoop and grab from the side motions can allow the gun to get away from you

3 It's the only method which works as well from a surrender position or other hand positions as it does when your hands are at your sides.

[dirtypool40]

Maybe I am better off coming up, and then down on the gun, it just seems more efficient to me to do the "scoop" on the way up. Thanks.

Bingo!!

.7's and .8's are cool but they ain't going to win you the match. Consistency is the key.

An A at 10yds in one second is plenty sufficient for our game.

Scooping is efficient... it can also be scary as hell.

I gave up scooping and switched to a kydex for Limited, and have actually gotten faster. I don't have what would be classed as a smokin' draw, but like Smitty says, it's fast enough and if I lose a match, I don't blame my draw.

A .8xx you can't call is going to win you some matches, maybe . But a 1.0x you are sure was a center "A" is going to win you just as many and won't lose you any.

Edited February 15, 2007 by dirtypool40

[Jody Waring]

Lots of good insight. I have pretty much always came down on the gun for the draw since I began IPSC in '89. I was so attracted to the "scoop" draw because to me it looked so smooth when done correctly, and I would say that matches I shoot very rarely ever have hands above shoulders start, and thought this would be the way to go. But as I mentioned in my earlier post, I just can't seem to get it right. Watching Saul Kirsch in video footage, he has a beautiful draw, no wasted motion whatsoever. I seen an up-close video if Eric Grauffel where it almost looked like he came in slightly from the side and snapped the gun out like Flex mentioned. Apples and oranges. I guess more practice will solve my problem and stick with what works. Thanks again guys, very informative.

[Al Capizzo]

I remember reading once on Eric's G. forum that he said he doesn't have a really smokin' fast draw. He said in a match he runs 1.1 - 1.2 seconds, which he felt was good enough.

He said there were more important things to practice that would save more time.

You might be better than you think. Eric knows something about this stuff.

[shred]

I remember reading once on Eric's G. forum that he said he doesn't have a really smokin' fast draw. He said in a match he runs 1.1 - 1.2 seconds, which he felt was good enough.

He said there were more important things to practice that would save more time.

You might be better than you think. Eric knows something about this stuff.

Hmm.. I've seen Eric draw faster than that in a match for a straight-up speed shoot, but in a lot of IPSC stages, you end up doing something before or as you draw. He is very quick at that kind of thing.

[Rumpy]

Jody,

I rarely have a draw under a sec. My draws were generally around 1.1-1.2 at 10m using a XD in production... I was more than happy with this. I'm now using an SP-01 and with the DA first shot I'm now doing 1.4's - Because it was slower for me I tried using the 'Scoop' method and had big problems getting my hand over the beavertail, damn small hands !!!!!!!!!

Then I remembered reading somewhere. I can't remember where, possibly on this forum that if you conciously speed up the motion of you weakhand during the draw, your strong hand speeds up in sympathy . I tried this and it worked for me, my draws went back to 1.1-1.2 when I remembered to speed up my weakhand. It didn't speed up my triggering, but I got it out of my holster so much faster - 0.2 of a second faster and had no probs keeping the same technique and safe grip.

[FranDoc]

You may wish to check Ron Avery's DVD's. I learned my draw from Ron; I can do ~.9 (after warm-up) to an 'A' sight picture (SA's dry fire exercise #1). This is with an XD9 from a Serpa retention holster, which is what I carry in 'real life'. I also have small hands.

Using optics and a non-retention holster would likely give a faster time, but I practice more for carry/defense than competition.

There is a quote that I've seen in various places, perhaps attributed to TGO (I may be incorrect, please check for original source. I'm sure others on the Forum can quote this verbatim): "... slow is smooth and smooth is fast ...", or something similar to that.

You need to give the gun a stable platform to operate on, and you need to call 'A's' to shoot them. See what combination of motions gives you that result.

[Jody Waring]

I will have to look at getting these videos. Rumpy, good suggestions. I am really almost 100% sure I will go for the "down on to the gun draw" and just practice it. I am impressed with the draw times you guys are getting from the retention holsters, most open guys I know would envy you.

[Rumpy]

Jody,

I use the down and up method too, scoop didn't work for me even 80% of time..... Draws were from a speed rig as I'm not in the US .

[RogerT]

Do you look at the target or the gun while waiting for the beep?

I look at the first target and I try to have the "focus" halfway to the target and then bring up the sights to the sight line without moving my head, but I see a lot of shooters looking down on the gun while waiting for the beep.

What works for you?

[Jody Waring]

I am always looking at the target, or if I have to move at the beep- in the direction I am headed. I don't think I have ever put focus on the gun for the draw. Even on an stage with hands on wall, on table etc.... I try to keep my focus off the gun and just try a couple of dry runs to the gun before the "nod" for are you ready. The down and up method probally is the best for me as I do like having a good stable grip on the gun before it comes out. I plan on a good dry fire session tomorrow and I will have to try both ways, and maybe I'll settle on what is working the best for me. I think I already know my answer.

[Ramas]

My 2cents,

If I have target in my view I allways look in it, and I'm looking in "exact" point on it where I want to hit, and 99% I hit where I looking at. On table draws I look to gun as well in seated ones

[FranDoc]

Do you look at the target or the gun while waiting for the beep?

What works for you?

Eyes ALWAYS on the target -- just a bit below the perforated 'A' ... or mid-center-of-mass of the oncoming offender in defense situations.

Practice. The hand finds the gun. Down - index finger releases the retention clip - grip high on the 'tang' (XD) - weak hand past midline to complete the grip by mid-rib level - gun comes up with the slide level - slight focus shift to replace the 'A' on the target (or whatever graphic on the dude's T-shirt) with the front sight.

You don't look at your feet when you drive. They find the gas/brake/clutch because you've practiced enough and you 'know' where they are. Hand-to-gun, eyes-to-target-to front-sight becomes the same.

You'll get it.

[Pat Miles]

I found that my strong hand draws were quicker than my freestyle draws. The only conclusion that I could come to was that my left hand(weak hand) movement was slowing down the draw. Don't overlook working on the speed of your weak hand in the draw process. Most folks think only about the speed of the hand that draws the gun from the holster and assume that the weak hand will automatically keep pace. Ain't necessarily so!

CYa,

Pat

[Paladin]

smoothness in the draw:

1. develop that accelerate/decelerate sequence in going for the gun..

2. Develop a link between where the gun is and what you must do to reach it with your hand

3. Just go for the gun at the signal.. (picture putting a fork with food in your mouth.. once you stop to think you are going to fumble )

..then there is the presentation but thats another ball game.. for now practice getting the gun out smoothly..

[Al Capizzo]

This might be elementary, but just turning the hoster out (away from my centerline) and allowing me to bring the gun straight out rather than having to turn it ever so slightly when pushing out with it saved a tenth or two for me. Certainly made me more consistant getting on the dot.

Might be worth looking at for you.

[Mo Hepworth]

Heh Jody,

this is something I found I lost a lot of time on. My draw speed has improved after watching the Matt Burkett Dvd's, and some of the Burner series. I know that some will use the 70% weak hand, 30% strong hand for grip pressure. I think that is complicated, I use a equal pressure grip. after LAMR, I am in the exact position I want to be for my draw. I don't get "stiff", I actually do the opposite. I totally relax my arms as much as I can.

Most times I am drawing .85 DA shot with an A at close stuff. On a few occasions I have drawn a .71 & .91 for 2nd shot up close (ie: 3-5M).

In Matt Burkett and Jerry Barnhart series, and in Brian's book they all mention the draw and getting the gun up as fast as you can, but also mention getting a good sight picture in relation to the distance. I have also being using a little grip machine that helps me isolate my trigger finger.

The draw is only used once in a stage, but with 8-10 stages, I may take off to a 3-7 seconds if everything else being equal. This can really add up in a steel match!

just my opinion,

MO=FNG

Edited March 3, 2007 by Mo Hepworth

[boz1911]

Steve Anderson's book has helped my draw times drop from 1.2-1.3 to .9-1.0, at 5yards A zone. Not enough can be said for dryfire practice, even though 15-20 minutes is all I can stand.

However I gave up the scoop draw method after tossing my pretty ass Bedell on the concrete floor one time.........Don't have to hit me in the head twice.......

[JThompson]

I am doing around 1-1.2 in practice, but I grabbed the time after a stage last night and found the time to be 1.4. That was good enough to win the stage. Granted no Ms or GMs but a couple of As in my class. I would really like to see that number at 1 or just over, but I'm a little cautious in front of a crowd.

JT

EDIT That was from 20yrds to a popper.

Edited July 27, 2007 by JThompson

[uscbigdawg]

Jody,

I learned the draw from two people. Burkett got my mechanics right and had in the 0.85's and .9's pretty easy. I did a private class with Mike Voigt and after some minor tweaking, I got the best advice to date on my draw....

GO FASTER!

It helped, but you do have to work out the mechanics first. Burkett's videos will do this perfectly.

Rich