Idpa Rules On Steel Targets

[Fireant]

O.K. I have just reread the rule book again and I still see two statements that contradict themselves ( I know there are more than two, but I can live with most of the others) and have no explanation for a solution. Remember this is IDPA NOT USPSA.

C-11 on pages 9 & 10 state that reshoots are allowed for range equipment failures and SO interference. So steel targets are range equipment

But on page 75 section C. Steel it says that steel targets not hit or knocked down incur the 2.5 sec miss and a FTN penalty for a total of 7.5 seconds of penalty.

O.K. I have all of that straight, but the rule book does not include anything anywhere about how to handle a steel target that is hit, but not knocked down. There is no calibration shot spelled out, no mention of it being considered a range malfunction, no mention of how to handle this situation. When it happens in a match a USPSA shooter calls for a calibration shot, but that is not in the IDPA rule book.

Is there a ruling on this from headquarters?

[p99shooter]

Not an "official" IDPA answer, but our club typically sets poppers very light so that a finger push will knock them over.

If a shooter believes that they put a good shot on a popper and it did not fall over, we find someone shooting 9mm WWB, and have them shoot the popper dead center from 10 yards.

[Fireant]

If a shooter believes that they put a good shot on a popper and it did not fall over, we find someone shooting 9mm WWB, and have them shoot the popper dead center from 10 yards.

But that is not in the rule book. If it did fall, what rule would you base your decision on? The IDPA rule book also states that when something is questionable the ruling goes in favor of the shooter.

[rubberneck]

O.K. I have just reread the rule book again and I still see two statements that contradict themselves ( I know there are more than two, but I can live with most of the others) and have no explanation for a solution. Remember this is IDPA NOT USPSA.

C-11 on pages 9 & 10 state that reshoots are allowed for range equipment failures and SO interference. So steel targets are range equipment

But on page 75 section C. Steel it says that steel targets not hit or knocked down incur the 2.5 sec miss and a FTN penalty for a total of 7.5 seconds of penalty.

O.K. I have all of that straight, but the rule book does not include anything anywhere about how to handle a steel target that is hit, but not knocked down. There is no calibration shot spelled out, no mention of it being considered a range malfunction, no mention of how to handle this situation. When it happens in a match a USPSA shooter calls for a calibration shot, but that is not in the IDPA rule book.

Is there a ruling on this from headquarters?

I guess this is one of those cases where the IDPA rule book isn't as through as the USPSA rule book.

At our local matches all poppers are tested with a 9MM before the stage is shot. At the state match level if I hit a popper and it didn't drop I would ask to speak to the MD and ask that the popper be recalibrated and then ask for a re-shoot. I think most MD's don't want that sort of controversy hanging over their head and will grant you a re-shoot on the stage. As far as there being a hard and fast rule there isn't one, but the rule book clearly states that the benefit of the doubt should go to the shooter. I assume that would apply to prop malfunctions as well.

Edited November 6, 2006 by rubberneck

[Ted Murphy]

Well the rule book does say that the shooter gets the benefit of the doubt, and the MD has final say.

For me, a solid hit on a popper is a clean target or grounds for a reshoot.

It is certainly an oversight in the rule book.

[Flexmoney]

For me, a solid hit on a popper is a clean target or grounds for a reshoot.

It is certainly an oversight in the rule book.

Ted, what would you call with a solid hit on the target? Give the hit or order the reshoot?

[p99shooter]

Maybe the procedure for rulings on steel isn't in the IDPA rulebook because of this:

CoF 18. No more than 25% of the shots required on any string

of fire may be on steel targets and no more than 10% of the

total shots required in the match may be on steel.

There's normally not a lot of steel at IDPA matches anyway. This year's nationals had two steel targets total. If it's a concern, paint steel between shooters. If a shooter calls her/his shot on the steel and moves on, then later sees that it didn't fall, a fresh coat of paint will tell the story.

[Fireant]

Because of the lack of steel many IDPA only guys don't realize how heavy they set the steel. By the rules I would have to argue with the fresh coat of paint telling the story. Any hit showing on the steel and it still standing would have to be a range failure and a reshoot issued. Good hits and bad hits can not be called. It either hit the steel and it fell or it hit the steel and did not fall thus a reshoot. That's the point here, since there is no procedure spelled out in the rules and the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter, we need to remember that and not try to impose our bias from the other sports that we shoot.

[rubberneck]

Maybe the procedure for rulings on steel isn't in the IDPA rulebook because of this:

CoF 18. No more than 25% of the shots required on any string

of fire may be on steel targets and no more than 10% of the

total shots required in the match may be on steel.

There's normally not a lot of steel at IDPA matches anyway. This year's nationals had two steel targets total. If it's a concern, paint steel between shooters. If a shooter calls her/his shot on the steel and moves on, then later sees that it didn't fall, a fresh coat of paint will tell the story.

A single piece of steel that won't drop can mean the difference between winning and losing. If they are going to allow the use of steel in sanctioned matches than they should have a clear ruling on how to handle steel that won't fall.

[Grump]

Because of the lack of steel many IDPA only guys don't realize how heavy they set the steel. By the rules I would have to argue with the fresh coat of paint telling the story. Any hit showing on the steel and it still standing would have to be a range failure and a reshoot issued. Good hits and bad hits can not be called. It either hit the steel and it fell or it hit the steel and did not fall thus a reshoot. That's the point here, since there is no procedure spelled out in the rules and the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter, we need to remember that and not try to impose our bias from the other sports that we shoot.

You're assuming it's a full-bullet-diameter hit on the steel. Fresh paint will tell that story, OR a wad of hits on the steel, and ear-witnesses to a "ring", and an LACK of smudges on the nice clean paint on the EDGE of the steel, would also confirm that to my satisfaction.

The joy's of "stable" rules include being stuck with ambiguities and vagarities until the next cycle. To me, any rule requiring a no-hit for steel that fails to fall must also be accompanied by a definition of what it *should* take to make the steel fall. THAT= a calibration rule.

Clipping the edge of steel so it doesn't fall over is a miss in my book, and you should take the extra shot if it's not one of those "X rounds only" stages. That's a "practical" and "defensive" reality of life, no matter how gamey you want to be.

[Fireant]

Clipping the edge of steel so it doesn't fall over is a miss in my book, and you should take the extra shot if it's not one of those "X rounds only" stages. That's a "practical" and "defensive" reality of life, no matter how gamey you want to be.

O.K., but your book is apparently not the rule book. There is no reference to a clipping hit or anything else. I guess painting between shooters would tell the tale. Any type of hit and the steel still standing would have to be a reshoot. No gameyness to it. Rulings for a GAME must be based on the rule book not someone's personal book.

[GmanCdp]

Maybe the procedure for rulings on steel isn't in the IDPA rulebook because of this:

CoF 18. No more than 25% of the shots required on any string

of fire may be on steel targets and no more than 10% of the

total shots required in the match may be on steel.

There's normally not a lot of steel at IDPA matches anyway. This year's nationals had two steel targets total. If it's a concern, paint steel between shooters. If a shooter calls her/his shot on the steel and moves on, then later sees that it didn't fall, a fresh coat of paint will tell the story.

A single piece of steel that won't drop can mean the difference between winning and losing. If they are going to allow the use of steel in sanctioned matches than they should have a clear ruling on how to handle steel that won't fall.

do 4 8" circle steel plates = 1 32" popper and if on a stage ..if there is 1 extra piece of steel outside the rules on 1 cof, but well within the match total,and only 1 shooter contests it,does that stage get throwed out,or does the MD just get his hands smacked by HQ..the reason i ask is that i saw this in a match in 2004...also at match..it was triple windy that day and on 1 stage using a 45acp, the popper would almost drop then the wind would push it back up..some guys just did a double tapp and went on..guys with a 9mm just waited around some till the wind died down,and some did a triple tap...

[RickB]

What about a forward-falling popper that is center-punched twice, and thus stays standing? How do you calibrate that?

[Scooter]

I e-mailed IDPA about popper calibration. The only answer I got from IDPA was it was up to the match director to decided.

[FTDR]

most do not complain, they just shoot till it falls because they do not want to draw attention to their pf

[Crusher]

most do not complain, they just shoot till it falls because they do not want to draw attention to their pf

Ah yes, some have not yet learned the value of "STEEL" ammo for use within stages that require that extra "POWER" for those "pesky poppers" which are used to simulate the "meth maniacs" in the "real world".

[Mayonaise]

You guys are splitting too many atoms over this.

[kdmoore]

most do not complain, they just shoot till it falls because they do not want to draw attention to their pf

Ah yes, some have not yet learned the value of "STEEL" ammo for use within stages that require that extra "POWER" for those "pesky poppers" which are used to simulate the "meth maniacs" in the "real world".

Hmmm, does this work? Hows the splash/splatter? Does it eat the plate?

[Jane]

Hmmm, does this work? Hows the splash/splatter? Does it eat the plate?

I'm just guessing that by "steel ammo" he isn't speaking of jackets... just of having a few rounds in your pocket that make more than 125.00000001 pf

[Singlestack Wonder]

The IDPA rule book also states that when something is questionable the ruling goes in favor of the shooter.

Exactly! Rather than opening up a rule book and having all of the range lawyers put in their two cents, the shooter is given the benfit of the doubt. That's the beauty of the IDPA rules, simplicity. Any and all issues are worked out at the time on the stage among a group of people who are out enjoying their day shooting.

[Jim Watson]

It was blustery today at the Missisippi State. We had a Popper that even when set as light as would stand up by itself in the occasional calm, would have to be hit at the very top with a heavy bullet to knock down when the wind was behind it. Lesser efforts and lower hits required it to be driven down. So we drove it down instead of carping and whining.

Edited November 11, 2006 by Jim Watson

[Fireant]

It was blustery today at the Missisippi State. We had a Popper that even when set as light as would stand up by itself in the occasional calm, would have to be hit at the very top with a heavy bullet to knock down when the wind was behind it. Lesser efforts and lower hits required it to be driven down. So we drove it down instead of carping and whining.

While that sounds great, that piece of steel should have been tossed as faulty or replaced with one that was not. "sucking it up" is never a good solution. Remember saying it's the same for everyone is not an acceptable answer.

[Scott R]

The IDPA rule book also states that when something is questionable the ruling goes in favor of the shooter.

Exactly! Rather than opening up a rule book and having all of the range lawyers put in their two cents, the shooter is given the benfit of the doubt. That's the beauty of the IDPA rules, simplicity. Any and all issues are worked out at the time on the stage among a group of people who are out enjoying their day shooting.

So are you suggesting the shooter should shoot the steel once and move on whether it falls or not........ trusting that the ruling will go in his favor? Because it sounds like the majority of the shooters wasted precious time (and places in the results) shooting a troublesome piece of steel that probably should have been fixed if only the rules were comprehensive enough to cover such a situation.

Edited November 13, 2006 by Scott R

[Merlin Orr]

IMHO - Driving a piece of steel down with multiple shots enormously increases the chance of bullets leaving the range... A huge liability issue. Hit someone or something and bye bye range...

[Grump]

IMHO - Driving a piece of steel down with multiple shots enormously increases the chance of bullets leaving the range... A huge liability issue. Hit someone or something and bye bye range...

Gee, isn't that a problem for *any* high round that misses your backstop?

You got four ways to keep rounds inside your range property:

1. Baffle the thing so nothing can get out, or have a mountain high enough to catch all, even the highest rounds. Absent a mountain, this usually means full overhead coverage for firing points AND for any areas for steel targets to sit.

2. Control the entire downrange area so there is no problem. That area of direct hits plus about 600 yards to the sides for ricochets is often called a "safety fan". Fence it, mark it, etc. Utah or Nevada or both has a presumption of adequate perimeter warnings if the signs are red and spaced no more than 100 feet apart.

3. Tie a string to everyone's muzzles so they can't elevate above your backstop. Not very practical to say the least, and still leaves the ricochet problem at your downrange steel.

4. Limit ammo to mousefart loads that won't leave the property if fired over the backstop. Also unacceptable. Any idea how far a 500 fps "cowboy" load will still travel and cause serious bodily injury? I could surprise you.

Fireant: I still see a stronger case for the steel doesn't fall = a miss interpretation than for a "steel doesn't fall = an equipment malfunction and re=shoot interpretation. Your approach would swallow the rule with the exceptions.

After all, how much doubt is there when everyone else's 125.001 PF loads knocked it down but yours didn't? Jim Watson's description of events truly sounds like bad steel, and if I were MD I would throw out the stage for the overall match standings.