What Do You Consider To Be Appropriate Accuracy For Ipsc Loads?

[Armando Q]

What do you consider to be appropriate accuracy for IPSC loads?

I currently shoot a 4 inch barreled SW 610 and developed my first 10MM load. It produced 176 PF with 2.5 inch groups at 25 yards using the following recipe:

Winchester brass

5.6 gn win 231

180 gn extreme plated RNFP

AOl 1.272

Fairly heavy taper crimped. It deforms the bullet a bit. However, it does not cut the plating.

I recently changed to Starline brass and my AOL increased to 1.285. I am right at the shoulder on the bullet and don’t think I can seat any deeper. My PF went down to 170 and my groups opened up to 4.00 inches at 25 yards. If my recollection is correct, velocity spread was somewhere at about 60 ft per second.

The only other variable is that I changed powder lot numbers.

I think my first batch was just beginners luck. Can anyone comment on how to go about correcting the accuracy problem? I have 2000 new Starline cases so I hope the answer is not go back to Winchester brass.

What group size would you feel comfortable with?

Thanks

Armando

[ipscbob]

What do you consider to be appropriate accuracy for IPSC loads?

What group size would you feel comfortable with?

I will probably get flamed for this but I choose to judge my accuracy requirements on real world match related needs. I am generally happy if I can reliably hit a six inch circle at 50 yards. The worst you will likely see is during a 50 yard standards stage. My biggest gain in accuracy came when I switched from WC plated bullets to montana gold jacketed in all of our loads. Give the MGs a try, you wont be sorry.

[ChuckS]

Well, the smallest target you will see will probably be the upper A zone on the metric target. (4"x2" rectangle) Hit that every time at 30 yards off the bags and you should be good to go!

Later,

Chuck

[BritinUSA]

Fairly heavy taper crimped. It deforms the bullet a bit. However, it does not cut the plating.

If the bullet is deformed in any way it will not fly straight, try reducing the amount of crimp. If in doubt about how much crimp, get some factory loads and measure the diameter of the case at the very top and try to replicate this with your press.

[EricW]

I have really altered my opinion of "acceptable accuracy" lately. And it's still evolving. I'll accept less accuracy in practice because it forces me to always release the trigger with a perfect sight picture.

In matches, I want to have *no* uncertainty that where I read my sights is where my bullet is going. And yeah, you can go berzerk with the quest for accuracy and spend so much time group shooting that you aren't working on vital IPSC skills. But confidence....without confidence...I'm making a hell of a lot of unneccessary make up shots.

[/C-Class Shooter Unqualified Pontification Mode]

[Harmon]

acceptable accuracy? Ipsc A zone at 25 yards..your choice of which one...

Harmon

[EricW]

acceptable accuracy? Ipsc A zone at 25 yards..your choice of which one...

Harmon

I'm not picking on you, but I keep hearing that statement in the looser form of "anywhere on the upper A/B is OK with me". But if that's all one is going to demand, how can you possibly call your shots? I'm not a good shooter, but I want to know that the shot that I triggered on the left edge of the A zone actually is going to go there and not next door in to Charlie's backyard. Not demanding accuracy on game day seems like a way to really slow yourself down if you're trying to shoot 90-95% of the available points.

Just what I'm thinking these days. Give it six months and I'll be parrotting Jerry M's "Hell...we ain't shooting bullseye" at matches.

[JFD]

If I'm doing my part, I want to hit no more than 1/2" from where I'm aiming at 25 yards. I'd rather stick 20 black pasters on a metric target than shoot a single group. Makes it easier for me to call my shots. After 30+ years of it, I really hate shooting groups.

[kevin c]

Three inches at twenty five yards means effectively that you have one and a half inches of error to either side of your dead center aiming point on the A zone of the metric target, still a sure A zone hit with room to spare. Six inches gives you no margin for error for a certain hit. Two inches at 25 yards gives you more margin for error, and one inch even better. One to two inches is what most people seem to want.

My impression is that accurate loads/guns benefit shooters of different skills in different ways. If, say, you have the nearly superhuman skill to consistently shoot close to or at the limits of the gun and ammo, you might be able to see the sights go across a no shoot bordering the A zone of the target and quickly and reliably break the shot one inch in at 25 yards. That's a high probability hit with a load shooting into one inch, but might be a penalty at two, and is more likely to be one at three or four inches. Having the most accurate load, then, helps the most accurate shooters literally live out on the edge. If you're less skilled (like me, can't break the shot at six inches let alone one ), then trying such a shot with a highly accurate gun and load will probably place the shot very precisely in the no shoot where the gun was pointing when the trigger got jerked - I'd have to take extra time and perhaps fewer points to aim well away from the danger zone to reduce the risk, accurate load or not.

Even though I might not be able to use the accuracy the way a GM might, accurate guns and ammo still help me because they are more forgiving of the larger wobble in my hold on the middle of a small scoring surface (I might still get an A using the more accurate combo if the shot breaks out on the edge). And, of course, it takes shooting with an accurate gun and loads in order to develop the skill of shooting accurately.

Be sure that you can shoot the groups that actually prove the accuracy of the load/gun. If you can't, use a machine rest, or a very good friend who is a very good shot who will take the time to shoot several groups with your gun and ammo.

Just my two cents worth.

Kevin C

grammar and clarification edit

Edited September 21, 2006 by kevin c

[HSMITH]

I want every single bit of accuracy I can get for my match ammo, short of lead bullets. I love lead bullets but won't deal with the smoke, and I have a high lead level in my blood.

I can only shoot a 3" or so group at 25 yards on a good day, 4" or so at that distance is available on demand. If I shoot over bags the group could be anywhere between one hole and 6 inches, I am not a good group shooter and a worse shooter off the bags.

If my load shoots to 4" or less from my hind legs unsupported I am good to go, that load in the hands of a good shooter will go at or under an inch. Then I know the load is as good as it could ever need to be.

[BSeevers]

I like a very accurate gun and shooting groups is one of the keys to getting better and a higher classification. Most of the upper level GM's are obsessed with accuracy.

[Armando Q]

Thanks for all the comments. I appreciate the input.

I certainly prefer to be at 2.5" groups at 25 yard. I am mostly excited by it because I can FINALLY hold the sight picture and want that feed back on the paper. If I miss what I am shooting at I want to know it was me and not my equipment…

I am very new to reloading and am not sure what to expect from my own loads. I GUESS MY REAL QUESTION IS HOW TO GO ABOUT CORRECTING THE ACCURACY ISSUES.

I am thinking that this round needs more pressure behind it to become accurate.

I appreciate any guidance.

Armando

[38superman]

From a rest I am comfortable with any gun and load that will group 2" or better at 25 yds.

A rest and all the time in the world are ideal conditions.

Under duress and shooting offhand, aiming is compromised and errors magnified.

Even so, a 2" gun should allow you to stay well within the A zone at any reasonable IPSC distance (if you do your part).

I am puzzled that your 610 is grouping 2 1/2 to 4".

In my experience, most high quality revolvers are capable of better accuracy than you are getting.

With my 686 I can shoot 5 shot groups under 1" on demand.

How does your gun do with factory rounds?

Tony

Edited September 22, 2006 by tlshores

[Armando Q]

Your right all of my revolvers can out-shoot me. This includes the 610. At MY skill level I can shoot up to 2.5" with any of my revolvers.

My concern is with the load. I was able to get a good load and then something changed. I am trying to correct it.

You gave me a great Idea. I am going to shoot some factory match stuff to see what I can use as a baseline.

thanks

[AzShooter]

If you had a decent load and it went south on you there could be lead or copper in your barrel. I just clean my 627 since I couldn't get it to shoot better than 4 1/2 inches at 25 yards. I soaked it in Sweets and scrubbed it for an hour with a .375 rifle brush and then patches until there were no signs of lead.

Today I took it to the range. Same loads now shoot 2 inches at 25 yards.

[38superman]

Armando,

Changing brass shouldn't create a drop off in accuracy that profound.

If it is the same load with the exception of the brass, I could see a change of 1/4" but not what you describe.

Starline is excellent quality brass and my loads tighten up a bit with Starline vs. Winchester.

However the difference is slight and I often use them both with cases mixed.

Copper fouling will degrade accuracy but it is a slow and gradual process.

Probably not the culprit when accuracy takes a quick dive.

Sounds mechanical to me.

Check your rear sight and make sure the screws haven't worked loose.

This is a common problem, especially with guns that have a heavy recoil.

It's easy to burn a lot of ammo chasing a problem that isn't ammo related.

Learned that lesson the hard expensive way.

Tony

Edited September 22, 2006 by tlshores

[pmd]

Fairly heavy taper crimped. It deforms the bullet a bit. However, it does not cut the plating.

If the bullet is deformed in any way it will not fly straight, try reducing the amount of crimp. If in doubt about how much crimp, get some factory loads and measure the diameter of the case at the very top and try to replicate this with your press.

You can also pull the bullet and visually inspect.

+1 on what Kevin C wrote.

I am an advocate that one should have the most accurate load/pistol combination.

I probably spend too much time off season with load testing - but I want to know that a missed shot was the nut behind the trigger and not the pistols accuracy...

[Flexmoney]

Winchester brass

5.6 gn win 231

180 gn extreme plated RNFP

AOl 1.272

Fairly heavy taper crimped. It deforms the bullet a bit. However, it does not cut the plating.

I recently changed to Starline brass and my AOL increased to 1.285. Armando

I can see your power factor ging down becasue of the increase in OAL, but why did your OAL increase?

[ima45dv8]

Thanks for all the comments. I appreciate the input.

I certainly prefer to be at 2.5" groups at 25 yard. I am mostly excited by it because I can FINALLY hold the sight picture and want that feed back on the paper. If I miss what I am shooting at I want to know it was me and not my equipment…

I am very new to reloading and am not sure what to expect from my own loads. I GUESS MY REAL QUESTION IS HOW TO GO ABOUT CORRECTING THE ACCURACY ISSUES.

I am thinking that this round needs more pressure behind it to become accurate.

I appreciate any guidance.

Armando

I've found that the load with the lowest Standard Deviation as reported by my chrono is generally the most accurate. In one of my guns that meant chosing the load that was a little stronger (172 vs. 168 power factor), and the rounds did not impact dead center (initially). But with the low SD loads they came closer to impacting the same point every time, and that consistency produces small groups.

A small adjustment of the rear sight and I've been happy with the acuracy of my loads ever since.