Vince Pinto Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 OK guys, input time again ........ How would you feel if we removed the requirement for a double-action first shot? You would still not be allowed to use SAO guns and you would still be required to decock your gun before holstering after the LAMR command. The change would give competitors the option of drawing their guns and cocking the hammer (or racking the slide) for the first shot. Good idea? Bad idea? No difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 I think the number of AD,s is going up. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherErik Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 It wouldent make any difference except it might benifet an inexperienced shooter who isnt good with a double action. Pulling a double action trigger is alot faster than cocking the hammer or racking the slide. The good shooters are still going to use a double action first shot. I say don't change it. Shoot the first shot DA and if you yank it down you better shoot again. Most new shotoers dont dryfire let alone DA dryfire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Vince, I think in the end, it would make no difference. It's way slower to cock first, or, if you do it fast, it might cost you your thumb . So instead of penalizing people who cock first with a procedural or DQ or whatever, we penalize them with the removal of their thumb or a lousy time. (Edited by spook at 12:22 pm on Feb. 13, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerome Poiret Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 I'm with lkytx: more manipulation, more danger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Keep it the same. If it ain't broke, why fix it? I would like to see the 5 lb first shot rule in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Why are we considering that modification? It negates the whole idea of the division. It also discourages practice. I vote, NO but I would'nt care if a competitor did it...it's slow. SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Why the change? I suppose it could be that folks in other countries do things a little bit differently than we do in the US. Heck, some military and police organizations carry without a round in the pipe and rack the slide for the first shot. Far be it from me to say "no" to a proposed international rules change just because that ain't the way we do it here. If they wanna rack the slide or cock the hammer, go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Would the change allow you to start cocked and locked? CZ shooters would no doubt like that. -ld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muser Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Production Division restricts the action of pistols to DA/DAO, but 5.2.1 says that....within the regulations of each Division, the firearms shall not be restricted by action or type. Is this a contradiction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Combine L10 and Production, it is the user who make a gun safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 "within the regulations of each Division" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 leave it as is. thanks lynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunlop Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 I see no problem with the proposal Vince, IMO there is no safety issue, we already start stages holstered in 'Cond 2' and I have never seen any troubles arising. If a shooter can't draw and rack without endangering himself or others they shouldn't be shooting. Not sure how slow it is either, I managed a 1.58 at 15yds on the plate rack with my SV. For people like me with short fingers that may be a viable option. P.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muser Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Quote: from TheItlianStalion on 11:18 am on Feb. 13, 2003 "within the regulations of each Division" "Within" the regulations of Production Division on page 92, it states, d) Single Action pistols are not allowed. First shot must be double action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muser Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 If you allow a DA pistol to shoot the entire stage SA, how do you justify restricting SAO pistols from competing in Production Division? If it's not about the action of the pistol, but providing some sort of time impediment, such as cocking the trigger or racking the slide, why not let a SAO pistol compete in Production Division, as long as they rack the slide for the first shot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 I'm with most in that leaving it the way it is would promote safer, more efficient gun handling. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solidsnake Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 ditto! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Bagoly Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 --snipped-- Use a gun that meets the requirements of the division. Operate it safely. What else do you need? (Edited by Rich Bagoly at 5:41 pm on Feb. 13, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeeDee Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Vince, Better leave it the way it is now, although I woudn't mind the change. As a Glockjock I have no option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted February 14, 2003 Author Share Posted February 14, 2003 Thanks for the input guys, but some of you are confusing different issues. Divisions separate guns, and Production is the "non-SAO" division. This will never (read: not in a million years!), allow SAO guns which dominate Open, Standard & Modified (Open, Limited & L10 in the US). Once you qualify for Production with a non-SAO gun, then a distinctly separate issue is the current double action first shot requirement, and this deals with the competitor's action after the beep. Our thinking is that if a competitor feels happier not lowering his hammer manually during loading on a gun without a decocking lever and/or if he's happier racking his slide or cocking his hammer during the draw, that should be his option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted February 14, 2003 Author Share Posted February 14, 2003 1) Divison rules take precedence over the general rules. 2) The primary criteria of Production is "SAO guns not allowed" (not DA/DAO are allowed) hence SA/DA guns are OK (e.g. Beretta 92FS, CZ75). You can also shoot, say, a DA revolver in Production Division, which is a different action and type to a Beretta or CZ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Vince, I see your point. If I want to shoot my CZ-75 in Production, I have to hold on to the hammer, pull the trigger, and lower the hammer manually onto the firing pin after the LAMR command, in order to start with a double action shot. While I don't have a problem with this, I can imagine that some people might, and some ROs might, as well. If I chose instead to draw, rack the slide, and then go, my first shot would be single action, but I would not have risked DQ or my fingers by accidentally letting the hammer go! I wouldn't have a problem with that if a competitor wanted to do it. Thumb cocking the hammer and saying "Go ahead, make my day!" while you do it is pretty cool, but I don't know if it's really all that safe, or desirable (if your thumb slips before the sear engages, can the hammer fall hard enough to set off a round?) So I guess I'm OK with the Israeli draw, but not with the Harry Callahan. Semper Fi, DogmaDog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcount Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Jeez, I was just thinking about a revolver in Production Division. Should I assume 8-shot revolvers would be OK? Or would they be precluded by the 2,000 produced requirement? But then there would only need to be 500 produced for Limited or Lim-10. I'm so confused!!! Did I say that out loud? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Bagoly Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 The ready condition for DA autos, and DA revo's is the same. Thumb cocking the auto is a penalty. Cocking the revo is not. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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