Is Singlestack A Failure?

[GeorgeInNePa]

SS division has 3 years to prove its case for continued existence. What is the benchmark by which the SS division will be judged as a success or failure?

I have to assume that the benchmark will have to exceed the successes, or lack of successes of L10 and Revolver, as they are being discussed as candidates for the chopping block as divisions.

If SS is being added for purely a change in philosophy, such as returning to "our roots", then any measurable benchmark is mute. So, why the 3 years?

The 3 year term will have the decision being made in the next USPSA presidential term. Who is running? Are we headed for a "back to our roots" philosophy after we complete 8 years of a "3 gun is our future" philosophy?

USPSA membership has had an anemic annual growth rate of less than 1% over the last 6 years. It is clear that most of any new division's participation comes from current membership switching divisions, or shooting in multiple divisions.

Can any of the changes USPSA has made in its elected offices or rulebook be considered a success with these membership growth numbers?

SS division gives us yet another misguided chance to hope for a brighter future, another chance at "20,000 in 2000", the day when all will be right with the universe.

....I think I'll go fishing today.

What are your recommendations for growing the membership base of USPSA?

[ipscbob]

What are your recommendations for growing the membership base of USPSA?

Well, for one thing we could stop dwelling on the past so much. This has always been a sport full of innovators, not stagnators. Frankly, those who are the future of this sport don't know nor care who Jeff Cooper is and to base the future of the sport on his ideals is counterproductive. If the sport does not continue to evolve, it will die.

[Sam]

In my eyes, single-stack division is an answer to a problem that never existed.

Three 10 round magazines is all that is required to turn an IDPA legal .45 into a gun that is as competitive as anything else in L-10 division.

Limited 10 is everything SS isn't. Bull barrels are OK. Quickie holsters are OK. Guns that weren't designed by JMB are OK. Many of the 5,000 or so USPSA members that live in states where hi-cap mags are illegal have guns that they cannot shoot in JMB division.

I'll be shooting my single-stack in L-10 at the Nationals in September. I'll be wearing a kydex holster straight-up on the hip too. If somebody else wants to shoot a downloaded wide-body in a high-zoot holster that is great by me. Competing against shooters with different guns and rigs makes the whole experience more enjoyable.

The BOD would be wise to see the growing numbers in L-10 and leave it alone. Right now, L-10 is a heads up, run-what-ya-brung division that embodies the spirit of stock gun racing.

Why would we want to screw that up?

[omnia1911]

Want to turn 5 divisions into 1?

Take Limited, L10, SS, Revolver, and Production, then turn them in to 1 division called Limited.

Added Division requirements:

Mag and cylinder capacity is 8 rounds, holster and mag pouches are worn behind the hip, 9mm/38super makes major.

Added Rulebook change:

No more than 8 rounds from a shooting position.

Abracadabra...POOF!

Then let the best platform for Limited rise to the top. Some will still cling to their revolvers and DA pistols, but so what, they may like the challenge. At least the rules would give them a fighting chance, and they would all be competing with each other, rather than fragmenting into smaller and smaller division.

Sometimes it is better to tear the house down and start over from scratch rather than live in a patchwork of "handyman fixes". Imagine if Limited had been designed like this from the get go. We could have spent our time making USPSA a top notch organization rather than constantly running around "fixing" previous repair jobs.

[Sam38]

I like the SS Division and hope it flourishes.

As for L-10 I say keep it (with a special dispensation) for besoted states like CA and HI with mag capacity restrictions. But absorb it into Limited in the rest of the country. For the life of me I can't understand why anybody would like to play a game with 10 rounds in their mag when they could have 20 or 21.

Sam Spiteri

[omnia1911]

SS division has 3 years to prove its case for continued existence. What is the benchmark by which the SS division will be judged as a success or failure?

I have to assume that the benchmark will have to exceed the successes, or lack of successes of L10 and Revolver, as they are being discussed as candidates for the chopping block as divisions.

If SS is being added for purely a change in philosophy, such as returning to "our roots", then any measurable benchmark is mute. So, why the 3 years?

The 3 year term will have the decision being made in the next USPSA presidential term. Who is running? Are we headed for a "back to our roots" philosophy after we complete 8 years of a "3 gun is our future" philosophy?

USPSA membership has had an anemic annual growth rate of less than 1% over the last 6 years. It is clear that most of any new division's participation comes from current membership switching divisions, or shooting in multiple divisions.

Can any of the changes USPSA has made in its elected offices or rulebook be considered a success with these membership growth numbers?

SS division gives us yet another misguided chance to hope for a brighter future, another chance at "20,000 in 2000", the day when all will be right with the universe.

....I think I'll go fishing today.

What are your recommendations for growing the membership base of USPSA?

First thing to do is pay more attention to the paying customer standing in front of you, rather than the one you wish was coming in the door. Membership growth only occurs if they are coming in the front door at a faster rate than they are leaving out the back door. Hang on to those you have.

Never get into a position where your need to meet your expenses drives your membership goals. Your decisions aren't always that sound when you do.

Nothing attracts customers better than a good product or service. The money will follow.

Then again, USPSA may very well have found its buoyancy at 13,000-15,000 members. I repeat. Hang on to those you have.

[GeorgeInNePa]

Want to turn 5 divisions into 1?

Take Limited, L10, SS, Revolver, and Production, then turn them in to 1 division called Limited.

Added Division requirements:

Mag and cylinder capacity is 8 rounds, holster and mag pouches are worn behind the hip, 9mm/38super makes major.

Added Rulebook change:

No more than 8 rounds from a shooting position.

Abracadabra...POOF!

Then let the best platform for Limited rise to the top. Some will still cling to their revolvers and DA pistols, but so what, they may like the challenge. At least the rules would give them a fighting chance, and they would all be competing with each other, rather than fragmenting into smaller and smaller division.

Sometimes it is better to tear the house down and start over from scratch rather than live in a patchwork of "handyman fixes". Imagine if Limited had been designed like this from the get go. We could have spent our time making USPSA a top notch organization rather than constantly running around "fixing" previous repair jobs.

For the life of me, I can't imagine why you'd want to do this.

Limited is fine as it is, although the 9mm major makes sense to me.

Production is fine as it is, although the IPSC "load up the mag" idea sounds great.

L10, doesn't affect me at all, keep it if you like. Same with Revo.

Single Stack sounds good, but the mag pouch limitation sounds too IDPAish to me.

I used to think it was a good idea to chop back the Divisions, now, I don't really care. Someone else brought up SASS and fact they have way more divisions than you can shake a stick at. I think that's great.

The smart thing to do is, put a limit on payouts/prizes. If there aren't X number of shooters in a Division at a match, that division doesn't get official recognition at that match.

Edited July 1, 2006 by GeorgeInNePa

[GeorgeInNePa]

SS division has 3 years to prove its case for continued existence. What is the benchmark by which the SS division will be judged as a success or failure?

I have to assume that the benchmark will have to exceed the successes, or lack of successes of L10 and Revolver, as they are being discussed as candidates for the chopping block as divisions.

If SS is being added for purely a change in philosophy, such as returning to "our roots", then any measurable benchmark is mute. So, why the 3 years?

The 3 year term will have the decision being made in the next USPSA presidential term. Who is running? Are we headed for a "back to our roots" philosophy after we complete 8 years of a "3 gun is our future" philosophy?

USPSA membership has had an anemic annual growth rate of less than 1% over the last 6 years. It is clear that most of any new division's participation comes from current membership switching divisions, or shooting in multiple divisions.

Can any of the changes USPSA has made in its elected offices or rulebook be considered a success with these membership growth numbers?

SS division gives us yet another misguided chance to hope for a brighter future, another chance at "20,000 in 2000", the day when all will be right with the universe.

....I think I'll go fishing today.

What are your recommendations for growing the membership base of USPSA?

First thing to do is pay more attention to the paying customer standing in front of you, rather than the one you wish was coming in the door. Membership growth only occurs if they are coming in the front door at a faster rate than they are leaving out the back door. Hang on to those you have.

Never get into a position where your need to meet your expenses drives your membership goals. Your decisions aren't always that sound when you do.

Nothing attracts customers better than a good product or service. The money will follow.

Then again, USPSA may very well have found its buoyancy at 13,000-15,000 members. I repeat. Hang on to those you have.

I think USPSA is paying attention to the members, right now. The Nationals have a waiting list, most of the Area matches and many of the other majors have waiting lists. The membership wants to shoot our matches.

What about USPSA is driving away members?

[Matt Griffin]

I like the SS Division and hope it flourishes.

As for L-10 I say keep it (with a special dispensation) for besoted states like CA and HI with mag capacity restrictions. But absorb it into Limited in the rest of the country. For the life of me I can't understand why anybody would like to play a game with 10 rounds in their mag when they could have 20 or 21.

Sam Spiteri

Because reloads are part of the game. usPsa. I don't know of any stock .40 that has a 20-round capacity, so reloads are an interesting part of the platform.

And, for what it's worth, I don't care if there is a SS division, maybe I'll compete in it one day. But the talk of getting rid of L10 pretty much invalidates any non-1911 non-9mm from competition unless you want to start hosing. Oh, and just to nip some buds: If you're going to say "but you can compete in Production with a .40!" please be aware that the same argument has already been applied to SS pistols and L10. <sarcasm> Except, of course, they have the hideous disadvantage of an inch of magazine sticking out of the gun, instead of the minor disadvantage of 50% more power and recoil. </sarcasm>

H.

Edited July 1, 2006 by Houngan

[omnia1911]

SS division has 3 years to prove its case for continued existence. What is the benchmark by which the SS division will be judged as a success or failure?

I have to assume that the benchmark will have to exceed the successes, or lack of successes of L10 and Revolver, as they are being discussed as candidates for the chopping block as divisions.

If SS is being added for purely a change in philosophy, such as returning to "our roots", then any measurable benchmark is mute. So, why the 3 years?

The 3 year term will have the decision being made in the next USPSA presidential term. Who is running? Are we headed for a "back to our roots" philosophy after we complete 8 years of a "3 gun is our future" philosophy?

USPSA membership has had an anemic annual growth rate of less than 1% over the last 6 years. It is clear that most of any new division's participation comes from current membership switching divisions, or shooting in multiple divisions.

Can any of the changes USPSA has made in its elected offices or rulebook be considered a success with these membership growth numbers?

SS division gives us yet another misguided chance to hope for a brighter future, another chance at "20,000 in 2000", the day when all will be right with the universe.

....I think I'll go fishing today.

What are your recommendations for growing the membership base of USPSA?

First thing to do is pay more attention to the paying customer standing in front of you, rather than the one you wish was coming in the door. Membership growth only occurs if they are coming in the front door at a faster rate than they are leaving out the back door. Hang on to those you have.

Never get into a position where your need to meet your expenses drives your membership goals. Your decisions aren't always that sound when you do.

Nothing attracts customers better than a good product or service. The money will follow.

Then again, USPSA may very well have found its buoyancy at 13,000-15,000 members. I repeat. Hang on to those you have.

I think USPSA is paying attention to the members, right now. The Nationals have a waiting list, most of the Area matches and many of the other majors have waiting lists. The membership wants to shoot our matches.

What about USPSA is driving away members?

USPSA should have the answer. If they don't have an answer.....Oh, well.

In the mean time, over 34,000 members have gone out the back door, not to mention those that have walked in the front door and did not become members before walking out the back door.

A Nationals match? That accounts for about 350 members. What about the other 14,000?

Most of the corporate cash flow comes from membership fees, classifier fees, and activity fees at the club level. Potential members walk in the door at the club level and get their first impression of the organization. For various reasons at least 2 out of 3 have walk out the back door at some point.

[mlmiller1]

Omnia, I don't think having 2 out of 3 leave an organization that is 30yrs old or more is really that bad statistics wise. Many of the people left the org when there was only one or two divisions. They couldn't keep up with the equipment race. From the old timers Iknow, the game used to be played a little differently than it is now. People tried to mess with your mind during matches, no consistency on rules from club to club, snobs that only wanted "certain" people shooting with them, stuff like that. I've only been shooting uspsa for a few years but I've seen very little of that. Where I have seen it, though, those clubs are dying out. I believe generally uspsa is moving forward in a positive way. If trying new divisions bothers you, don't try them. If folks are scared there "pet" division is going away, write letters, contact your area directors, bring out new folks to shoot in your chosen division, but don't gripe & complain & use the old "back in the good old days" excuse for why things should stay the same. Things change, life changes, games change. I would venture a guess that uspsa has had more new members join in the last ten years than in the previous twenty or so. They have also had more changes in the last ten years than the previous years. What does that say?

MLM

[tightloop]

What are your recommendations for growing the membership base of USPSA?

Well, for one thing we could stop dwelling on the past so much. This has always been a sport full of innovators, not stagnators. Frankly, those who are the future of this sport don't know nor care who Jeff Cooper is and to base the future of the sport on his ideals is counterproductive. If the sport does not continue to evolve, it will die.

ipscbob...

Do know who the first President of the US was, do you know who the first man on the moon was, do you know who first hit 714 homeruns....NO you probably don't and probably don't care...but for those of us who are aware of the present also remember the past so that we can appreciate and thank those that came before us and gave us what we have today...

There are some of us who think that formation of SS division is evolution, as it caters to shooters who, for whatever reasons don't presently shoot USPSA, or for those that want a reason to shoot another division...for those that want a place to shoot their IDPA gun w/o having that ugly ass 10 round mag hanging out of it..

And for what it is worth, the luminaries who put this sport together and MADE it what it is today, don't warrant your snide and totally uninformed comments. And as for the future of this sport, until I read your name next to those like Max, Eric, TT, TGO, and the like, I doubt that Mr. Voigt has your number on his speed dial..

Rant Off...

[SA Friday]

I think everyone is missing the REAL point here. We need MORE divisions. The more divisions we have the MORE guns we can buy for the different divisions. It's all about the TOYS!

Seriously though, there's more to lose in getting rid of ANY peticular division than there is to gain. The loss of shooters because they are sour about losing their chosen division just isn't worth it. This isn't t-ball, and we don't have a never-ending flow of new shooters every match. Sports DO evolve over time, but they eventually have to stablize when it comes to their underlying intent and function or the inconsistancy will be its demise.

Most sports make small rule changes to guide the sport along through it's evolution, but realistically, the rule changes don't have a huge impact to the form and function (except for maybe the salary-cap rule). Getting rid of a division in USPSA equates to me like asking any of the major sports to get rid of a postion on the field, no more goalies in hockey, no more center fielder in baseball, etc. It's too drastic, and will cause back-lash.

Can't we all just tell the BoD to leave well enough alone, solidify SS as a real division, and go back to playing with our toys?

[omnia1911]

Want to turn 5 divisions into 1?

Take Limited, L10, SS, Revolver, and Production, then turn them in to 1 division called Limited.

Added Division requirements:

Mag and cylinder capacity is 8 rounds, holster and mag pouches are worn behind the hip, 9mm/38super makes major.

Added Rulebook change:

No more than 8 rounds from a shooting position.

Abracadabra...POOF!

Then let the best platform for Limited rise to the top. Some will still cling to their revolvers and DA pistols, but so what, they may like the challenge. At least the rules would give them a fighting chance, and they would all be competing with each other, rather than fragmenting into smaller and smaller division.

Sometimes it is better to tear the house down and start over from scratch rather than live in a patchwork of "handyman fixes". Imagine if Limited had been designed like this from the get go. We could have spent our time making USPSA a top notch organization rather than constantly running around "fixing" previous repair jobs.

For the life of me, I can't imagine why you'd want to do this.

Limited is fine as it is, although the 9mm major makes sense to me.

Production is fine as it is, although the IPSC "load up the mag" idea sounds great.

L10, doesn't affect me at all, keep it if you like. Same with Revo.

Single Stack sounds good, but the mag pouch limitation sounds too IDPAish to me.

I used to think it was a good idea to chop back the Divisions, now, I don't really care. Someone else brought up SASS and fact they have way more divisions than you can shake a stick at. I think that's great.

The smart thing to do is, put a limit on payouts/prizes. If there aren't X number of shooters in a Division at a match, that division doesn't get official recognition at that match.

The mistakes were made years ago by not setting stronger boundaries for Limited and letting it get out of control. Now everyone is going to feel like their ox is being gored by any suggestion of change, or they are indifferent to change if it doesn't directly effect them.

The success of SASS is driven by cowboy nostalgia and costuming more than the competition. Making any comparisons between USPSA and SASS is pretty shakey. SASS has a great marketing platform that appeals to a broad audience that reaches beyond the shooting aspect.

Don't think we should chop back on the divisions? How about adding an "Old West" division in USPSA.

We can co-opt some of SASS's success, just as we did by co-opting IDPA's success with Production (formerly Concealed Carry), co-opting Soldier of Fortune's 3 gun matches with our own, and now co-opting the Single Stack Classic match with Single Stack division.

USPSA was once the pioneer and innovator in the shooting sports.

[nipplehead]

Sounds good Friday....+1

Edited July 1, 2006 by nipplehead

[tightloop]

Omnia1911

Original IPSC was the pioneer and innovator..USPSA is the US version after the split..

[Jim Norman]

Want to turn 5 divisions into 1?

Take Limited, L10, SS, Revolver, and Production, then turn them in to 1 division called Limited.

Added Division requirements:

Mag and cylinder capacity is 8 rounds, holster and mag pouches are worn behind the hip, 9mm/38super makes major.

Added Rulebook change:

No more than 8 rounds from a shooting position.

Abracadabra...POOF!

Then let the best platform for Limited rise to the top. Some will still cling to their revolvers and DA pistols, but so what, they may like the challenge. At least the rules would give them a fighting chance, and they would all be competing with each other, rather than fragmenting into smaller and smaller division.

Sometimes it is better to tear the house down and start over from scratch rather than live in a patchwork of "handyman fixes". Imagine if Limited had been designed like this from the get go. We could have spent our time making USPSA a top notch organization rather than constantly running around "fixing" previous repair jobs.

Just like NASCAR, you could have an Open division with few limitations and then everyone else could just go to the local car dealer and buy what ever their wallet would afford and go race it.

Now that that little Tongue in Cheek comment is out of the way, how about a good way to kill USPSA. Let's combine everything that we have into one divison and shoot heads up. THat may well have worked in the early days when an 8 shot 1911 was a hot set-up compared to a 7-shot gun. Some how I think that all that would do today is really peeve a lot of our members and we'd have no more USPSA at all.

I am in favor of Revolver, Production, Limited, Limited-10, Single Stack, Open, Glocks Only and probably a few more division. I favor catagories to a point as well. Military, Active Law-Enforcement, Lady, Junior, Senior, Super Senior. I'd like to see a special Junior-.22 division for beginners under the age of maybe 12.

What we need is to be welcoming. We now live in a time where winning is what counts, not winning against all odds, but winning. We have T-Ball games where if one team gets too many points we stop keeping score! USPSA isn't that bad yet and hopefully it never will be, but to ask the average shooter with a production gun and 10 rounds to shoot heads up against an A-Limited shooter is not shooter friendly. It would not grow the sport.

Keep in mind, some people are not in this only for the competition. They enjoy a day out with friends, they enjoy shooting and actually only pay attention to a small sub-set of the scores. Sure, that wouldn't of neccessity change, but to be looking at the lower end of 70 scores as opposed to the middle of 15 is not a psychologically easy place to be.

So, I say keep all that we have, add in more as the equipment dictates. Have two or three National venues and a title in each. divide up the venues so that we get the best draw across divisions and catagories and lets go shoot!

Jim Norman

[Chriss Grube]

Well for everybody that wants to get back the roots it was the best platform wins....guess that would be simple. Since we are now making new divisions for every gun and person let's just forget this whole it's a competition thing and do away with scoring an prize tables. We can all shoot for fun and you can be the best SS-limited to 6 rounds, with X sights-shot while wearing one shoe and only one lens in your glasses. SASS is growing and it is all for fun so why not follow their path?

We can keep coming up with new divisions and constantly changing the rules(which leads to lots of complaining) or we can just pick a division and shut and shoot. This sport is never going to be the NBA so have a realistic outlook and enjoy what we have.

[zhunter]

Jim makes some very points. I personally only shoot to compete against myself and my own expectations for that match. Do I look to see how I faired against others, sure I do, that does help me gage my progress. I could care less about trophies, plaques, and prize tables. My joy of USPSA comes from the actual sport of shooting, not any such bragging rights etc....

Who cares if there are only 1 or 2 in a class and/ordivision? If those 1 or 2 shooters had a good time, it was a successful outing!!!

Do we need 15 national Champions, NO!!!!!!

[tightloop]

Chuck D

I am drawing a deep breath here...

Leave L-10 alone let the wide body guys have their fun there too. I will spent my money and shoot SS, with my completely retro flush fitting mags, even my old Gordon Davis mag holders...

This started out as a discussion of a question about the SS division and has evolved into a mud slinging rant between those who think they are the "future" of the sport and those of us who have actually seen this thing evolve...I am for evolution, but I also think the sport can adapt to be all inclusive...

Some mistakes have been made after the split of IPSC and the formation of USPSA and primarily were caused by the AWB...it is time to correct those errors and try to do that without pissing where you drink...doing just that is tough...and there are emphatic views on both sides of the argument, just as there are those who just want to be left alone where they are and don't understand what all the fuss is about..I appreciate that everyone has what they feel is skin in the game...noone wants their particular shooting group to be shortchanged or ignored...just human nature... Whatever happens will not happen overnight, and no matter how loud or long we rant on this topic here on this forum, it won't change things one bit...(maybe except to make some of us feel slightly better for the moment)...

Perhaps the best solution is to vote your feelings by spending your money where you think your niche is in the sport...build your guns, load your ammo, buy whatever type of mags you want then load it all up and go to the matches and see if you can't stomp the butt of the guys who mouth off the loudest from the groups you'd rather not hear from...I know that is what I am going to do...cause I am tired of the bickering, noninformed comments, aggitating remarks, and those that cannot make civil posts without defaming the sport, the founders and everyone who doesn't take their view...I love a lively debate as well as the next guy, probably more, but it isn't much fun to have a verbal battle with some who come to the battle unarmed.....so...I will watch where this thread goes while I dust off the big Dillon 1000, load mag tubes, while thumbing thru Brownells catalogue, and doing a detailed cleaning of my completely noncompetitive, retro, Govt Mod....You guys continue the debate, I will watch as I dry fire...

Tightloop out....

[zhunter]

Tightloop out....

Smart money is betting against that!!!!

[RIIID]

"A nation with no regards to it's past, has no future."

Abe

[GeorgeInNePa]

SS division has 3 years to prove its case for continued existence. What is the benchmark by which the SS division will be judged as a success or failure?

I have to assume that the benchmark will have to exceed the successes, or lack of successes of L10 and Revolver, as they are being discussed as candidates for the chopping block as divisions.

If SS is being added for purely a change in philosophy, such as returning to "our roots", then any measurable benchmark is mute. So, why the 3 years?

The 3 year term will have the decision being made in the next USPSA presidential term. Who is running? Are we headed for a "back to our roots" philosophy after we complete 8 years of a "3 gun is our future" philosophy?

USPSA membership has had an anemic annual growth rate of less than 1% over the last 6 years. It is clear that most of any new division's participation comes from current membership switching divisions, or shooting in multiple divisions.

Can any of the changes USPSA has made in its elected offices or rulebook be considered a success with these membership growth numbers?

SS division gives us yet another misguided chance to hope for a brighter future, another chance at "20,000 in 2000", the day when all will be right with the universe.

....I think I'll go fishing today.

What are your recommendations for growing the membership base of USPSA?

First thing to do is pay more attention to the paying customer standing in front of you, rather than the one you wish was coming in the door. Membership growth only occurs if they are coming in the front door at a faster rate than they are leaving out the back door. Hang on to those you have.

Never get into a position where your need to meet your expenses drives your membership goals. Your decisions aren't always that sound when you do.

Nothing attracts customers better than a good product or service. The money will follow.

Then again, USPSA may very well have found its buoyancy at 13,000-15,000 members. I repeat. Hang on to those you have.

I think USPSA is paying attention to the members, right now. The Nationals have a waiting list, most of the Area matches and many of the other majors have waiting lists. The membership wants to shoot our matches.

What about USPSA is driving away members?

USPSA should have the answer. If they don't have an answer.....Oh, well.

In the mean time, over 34,000 members have gone out the back door, not to mention those that have walked in the front door and did not become members before walking out the back door.

A Nationals match? That accounts for about 350 members. What about the other 14,000?

Most of the corporate cash flow comes from membership fees, classifier fees, and activity fees at the club level. Potential members walk in the door at the club level and get their first impression of the organization. For various reasons at least 2 out of 3 have walk out the back door at some point.

Wouldn't it have been easier to write, "I don't know"?

Well for everybody that wants to get back the roots it was the best platform wins....guess that would be simple. Since we are now making new divisions for every gun and person let's just forget this whole it's a competition thing and do away with scoring an prize tables. We can all shoot for fun and you can be the best SS-limited to 6 rounds, with X sights-shot while wearing one shoe and only one lens in your glasses. SASS is growing and it is all for fun so why not follow their path?

We can keep coming up with new divisions and constantly changing the rules(which leads to lots of complaining) or we can just pick a division and shut and shoot. This sport is never going to be the NBA so have a realistic outlook and enjoy what we have.

With the way you've been shooting lately, I can see why you'd want to do away with scoring...

[BritinUSA]

I hear that SS Division will be on the agenda for the next IPSC General Assembly in September. Perhaps IPSC will also adopt this new division.

[Chuck D]

"Leave L-10 alone let the wide body guys have their fun there too. I will spent my money and shoot SS, with my completely retro flush fitting mags, even my old Gordon Davis mag holders..."

Best news I've heard ALL week....

"those who think they are the "future" of the sport and those of us who have actually seen this thing evolve..."

With all due respect....your not the only one here with history...

"Perhaps the best solution is to vote your feelings by spending your money where you think your niche is in the sport...build your guns, load your ammo, buy whatever type of mags you want then load it all up and go to the matches and see if you can't stomp the butt of the guys who mouth off the loudest from the groups you'd rather not hear from..."

What makes you think this isn't already happening?

I must admit though...my new PPC gun may see much more action in 2007 than any of my IPSC guns after being a member of USPSA for 20 years...(1987 to 2007)

I've just about had my fill of constant rules changes.... IPSC and USPSA alike.

Edited July 1, 2006 by Chuck D