What Is "hiding"?

[MikeFoley]

Once again, not whining just discussing the concept in this thread, but note that the top B shooter (who was in my squad) is not classed A in anything at this time. That is the difference. I am very pleased with this match, but felt the data indicated that the classification system could be easily fixed to avoid most of the accusations of hiding and bagging.

Edited for spelling.

Edited May 10, 2006 by fomeister

[JFD]

"C" class didn't seem too bad at all, but now that I'm in "B" class I feel like I'm almost surrounded by sandbaggers. It's hell to win in B class. I managed it Saturday, but all our B class sandbaggers were shooting Area 6.

Speaking of L-10. My wife likes it as much as I did. I've been trying to drag her into Limited with the new G35, but she likes to reload a lot. I asked her about shooting SS but she just laughed at me when I mentioned not being able to use our twenty-six 10 round mags, and damn near hit me when I told her she'd have to lose the Ghost and reposition her mag pouches. I loved L-10 too when I first started(still do). Where else can you race so cheaply and still be competitive?

I'd shoot L-10 more, but my wife won't let me shoot MY/her Kimber and it was too wierd downloading my Para the one time I tried it.

Around here L-10 is bigger than Production, and SS has 1 dedicated shooter. It's rare to see a downloaded Limited gun, but nobody cares what anyone else is shooting.

To get back on topic, I'd like to see 1 classification for all divisions. I don't really care if it happens or not, as cheaters will always find a way to cheat. Sandbagging is cheating to me, "hiding" is BS as far as I'm concerned. Some shooter full of himself who's worried about someone else's business. Switching divisions is certainly within the rules and I don't give a crap what someone else's motivation is.

[Bigbadaboom]

When an "A" class shooter scores almost 83% below 9 "GM's" of the caliber that shot that match and not only takes first A but takes 2nd "M" in a field of 13 "M" class shooters I would need to hear some pretty smooth dialog to convince me that some sandbagging/hiding isn't going on. Especially when their last "Open" classifier was shot on 2/10/06 and their last "Limited" classifier was shot on 6/10/05.

you realize that 83% is an "A" class score right?

Shannon Smith shot an 85% (Entry level "M" percentage so I guess he should be move down to "M" class) and he came in 7th overall and is #8 in the "Top 20".

I did "Math".

and you're claiming this person was sandbagging/hiding by moving himself into a division with 9 GMs and 13 Ms...that seems like the opposite of hiding!

I didn't claim that he was trying to "Win" those classes.

What I'm claiming is that he is an "M" class open shooter who hasn't shot a Limited classifier since June of 05 yet had a chance to shoot 11 classifiers since then which he chose to shoot in Open but then decide to shoot Limted at this match.

I look at the 1st place "M" class shooter and look up his classifier info and it tells me he shot where he shoots. His last Limited classifier was shot last month.

There are plenty of reasons, which have nothing to do with sandbagging or hiding, why people switch divisions. maybe his open gun broke. maybe he ran out of open ammo. maybe his friend/wife/kid was shooting limited. maybe he just got a new limited gun. maybe he shot last year in open as a means to improve in limited. maybe he just felt like shooting iron sights. maybe he's going to the limited nationals this year and wants some practice.

Again, that all falls here: "I would need to hear some pretty smooth dialog to convince me that some sandbagging/hiding isn't going on."

I don't care how much sugar you pour on a pile of crap. You are not going to get me to believe it's chocolate pudding.

[MikeFoley]

Is this so-called hiding the same thing as bagging? Will Websters define hiding as switching divisions in order to bag?

I really have no issue with this as I stated earlier, but I can see what the problems are clearly. No one doubts that there is and has been sandbagging in this sport. Many have admitted to it over the years. Not everyone who shoots in a division they are underclassed in is hiding, but there are some. You may recognize them saying "I am shooting X division because I am still C in that and I could win C." I have seen shooters look at who is registered and what they are shooting before signing up, not just in USPSA, but most other shooting sports too.

These shooters are motivated differently than I am, they are fishing for prizes or trophies, or not looking too inept. I personally just try to improve my % to the winners over time with focus and practice.

Edited May 10, 2006 by fomeister

[Putty]

I wonder, if there was no prize table, would anyone care if you hidey-bagged?

What do you do if your practice quickly outstrips your current classification whereby the match you trained for is sooner than getting the requisite number of classifiers in? Give away your prize? Abdigate your place for that class? Get ready to be branded a heretic? Refuse the notion of awards all together?

Kinda like getting castigated for hard work and dedication.

[Ron Ankeny]

The obvious fix is to abolish the classification system and have everyone just shoot heads up from scratch.

[38superman]

Last year I got bumped up to B in limited by virtue of winning C at Area6.

This happened right before Nationals where I ended up in the middle of the B class pack.

I continued to shoot limited through the end of the year but this year I decided to switch to Lim10.

I did this for a variety of reasons.

First I like L10.

It is very challenging to break down the stages for 10 rounds and good practice for reloads.

I also spent a ton of time and money to build the ultimate L10 gun.

Second, I am trying to push my classification up in L10 and I want to PUSH it up, not drag it up by climbing the ladder in another division.

Third, I am a weak B in limited and a strong C in L10.

I prefer to compete where I am competitive and not just an "also ran".

I know it does happen but I think all the talk about hiding is just sad.

For a B or C or D class shooter (80% of our membership) there is no place to hide.

Even in matches where there are no L10 GM's, there is still enough talent to spank you like a stupid step child.

If you want to hide in IPSC the best place to do it is at home on your sofa.

Tls

P.S. - Personal message to Leatham, Jarrett, Manny, Miguez and others.

Stop hiding in Limited. Come over to L10 and face me like a man.

Edited May 10, 2006 by tlshores

[Bigbadaboom]

The obvious fix is to abolish the classification system and have everyone just shoot heads up from scratch.

I agree with this but it's very difficult to do when you have folks who just go out and do it for fun along with those who strive to be #1 combined again with those who just want to grab prizes/awards in whatever manner possible. I like the "One class across the board" idea best. Pick a division to master and make sure you like it and class all divisions off of that classification. If you're "M" in production then you're "M" in everything.

I don't like the way the system is set up but what I like even less are those who abuse the system in place. Change the system or be honorable and abide by it.

It's like acting retarded to win a prize at the "Special Olympics".

[ipscbob]

I know it does happen but I think all the talk about hiding is just sad.

For a B or C or D class shooter (80% of our membership) there is no place to hide.

Even in matches where there are no L10 GM's, there is still enough talent to spank you like a stupid step child.

For those of us who don't spend much time practicing this IS a way of life. The issue is not one of intent but is that the classification system does not mimic real life matches for a lot of us. If you analyse the classifiers, you will see that they are heavy with weak/strong hand shooting and standing reloads. These are skills that rarely rear their heads in stages at our local clubs. Unless I practice these skills, which I don't have the time for, I will forever do better shooting our typical field stages than I will classifiers. Does this mean that I am hiding?

[MikeFoley]

I have been further contemplating my one class fits all divisions idea. If this were to happen, USPSA would still collect classification data the way the do now in every division. Your highest on file would be what your classification is in all of the divisions. If you switched divisions and got really good with your new division, then you could move up even further. I see no down-side. Am I missing something?

[JFD]

The classsification system isn't perfect, but it's all we have for now. No classification system would mean USPSA would nearly die.

I'm a middle B class shooter, but could easily redirect my practice and become an M class shooter fairly quickly by focusing on classifier skills. Of course I'd get stomped anywhere I shot by "real" M class shooters. If the classifiers were more like the regular stages we shoot, then MDs would be bitching and moaning (rightly so I think) about how much time it takes to set up the typical long course classifier.

Saturday I shot the medium/long field course classifier I've ever seen (Lefty's Revenge I believe) in the several years I've been shooting USPSA. It's just so much easier to set up an "easy" classifier with 3 targets. When I was an MD and doing all the work myself, short classifiers that were easy to set up was all I was able to handle.

I think there are talented stage designers who could incorporate the typical skills needed for USPSA in a series of relatively simple stage designs. I'm not so sure this has been the goal of the current classifier stages. I'm thinking lots of movement, but not lots of special props or tons of targets.

As far as sandbagging sacks of crap are concerned, I don't know if this would help or not. Shooting a certain percentage above your classification could trigger some kind of nasty "punishment". Maybe an instant boost in classification that applies to that match, not just future matches. I would hate like hell for someone to be "punished" for shooting the match of their life, but if you shoot an A class score as a B class shooter, maybe that's what should happen.

I'm just thinking out loud. ...

[Genghis]

Shooting a certain percentage above your classification could trigger some kind of nasty "punishment". Maybe an instant boost in classification that applies to that match, not just future matches. I would hate like hell for someone to be "punished" for shooting the match of their life, but if you shoot an A class score as a B class shooter, maybe that's what should happen.

A B-Class shooter who shoots one A-Class score should have his percentage inch a little bit closer to A-Class. It takes (fairly) consistent performance to move up to another class, not just one high classifier score. I say this as someone who WANTS to move up, despite a lot of people telling me to enjoy life where I am.

[Loves2Shoot]

The arguement that I'm a X shooter shooter because I only score X% at major matches so I must really be a X shooter even if I regularly beat the next higher classified shooter is so lame.

The argument so old, worn out, and wrong. If you finsh within your percentage at a major match you should classified be at least 1 class higher. Seldom are the top 5 GM's within 10% of score and the winner skews the average % by 10% or MORE.

Sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes, but I've heard that for a LOT of years from a guy who was a total bagger. If thinking that makes you feel good about yourself then good for you. Look in the mirror and try to feel good about milking the system for piece of wood and metal.

The fact is there are people who put winning at any cost (even against competitors of a lesser skill level) that the will shoot whichever division they think it will be easier to win in. There are some that jump around for the challenges of better competition and some that hide from better shooters.

I had been working at open for the last few months and when I checked the roster for Area 1, I saw Sevigny signed up in Limited. Am I jumping divisions? Heck ya, I'm breaking out a gun I haven't shot in 9 months that just got rebuilt to see how bad I really suck, in Limited.

For some it's about "winning" for some it's about getting better and finding new challenges.

I have no dilusions of winning against the best...

... yet

[shred]

+1 on that. At a major match it's lucky if the top 3 are 95% of the winner.

A couple times I was grumpy I'd been moved up because I didn't really think I was shooting at that level ( A or B ) 'in matches'. At the next major matches respectively, I beat everybody in my old class and realized maybe I was where I should be.

B-class is where some sandbaggers hang out, but it's also where the inconsistent hang out. They shoot as fast as the M's, but throw the odd miss or NS. If one gets lucky and doesn't do that, they finish with the M's and get accused of sandbagging, were it a statistical fluke or not.

[vluc]

Maybe the classifiers should be the whole match you shoot, not just one stage?

[Flexmoney]

Hiding..in Limited...at an Area match??? Talk about hiding in plain sight!

[Ron Ankeny]

Daniel:

I know it's not practical to abolish the classification system. I was just pointing out that the only sure fire way to stop manipulation of the system, and the ensuing complaints (some legitimate and some not), would be to shoot from scratch. As long as we have the system, there will be issues.

Edited May 10, 2006 by Ron Ankeny

[Putty]

What I really want to see is if the results of my training with Scott (Lovestoshoot) was worth it. If I do not perform I can always blame him. See, theres always a place to hide.....

[Ron Ankeny]

I'm a middle B class shooter, but could easily redirect my practice and become an M class shooter fairly quickly by focusing on classifier skills.

One must wonder, with proper course design and the recommended balance of long courses, short courses, and standard exercises, would the situation you describe even enter into the equation?

Edited May 10, 2006 by Ron Ankeny

[SinistralRifleman]

There's a lot of talk in this thread about if new shooters have to compete heads up against the big dogs, that they will be intimidated and never come back...I really don't think that is the case.

These are the things that discourage n00bs from getting involved:

The mere existence of the big dogs and their widely publicized exploits discourages John Q. Gun Owner from becoming involved. I often hear, "I will never be as good as (insert name here)"...I tell these people while neither am I, just get out have fun, and do your best.

The perception that they do not have the right equipment to even try competing...I tell these people skill will hold them back longer than equipment, bring out your gear and see if it works as well as advertised

and the big one...

EGO! In the past several years I have met quite a few individuals who have talked a lot of smack before even shooting a match, go to a match totally sucked, then come up with all kinds of excuses as to why they did poorly. Some people just can't handle the fact that there are others out there who are better than them.

Classification based on skill seems asanine to me, and a good way to make people complacent. If you win D class, well 60% of the people there are still better than you. Getting beat by people who are better than you is a character building and learning experience.

Edited May 10, 2006 by SinistralRifleman

[Loves2Shoot]

In the past several years I have met quite a few individuals who have talked a lot of smack before even shooting a match, go to a match totally sucked, then come up with all kinds of excuses as to why they did poorly. Some people just can't handle the fact that there are others out there who are better than them.

So you've met Sandoz too?

"drift mode on"

I think you made some other really good points, when someone points out my classification to a new shooter I make a point to let that new shooter know I used to be the guy who came in at the bottom of the list. That and making people feel welcome no matter what they bring or what their skill level keeps more poeple coming back IMO than all the divisions we have ever will.

[Bigbadaboom]

I would rather come in dead last GM than 1st U, D, C, B, A, or M no matter what the match or prizes.

[Carmoney]

The obvious fix is to abolish the classification system and have everyone just shoot heads up from scratch.

....pretty much like we do in Revolver.

[raz-0]

B-class is where some sandbaggers hang out, but it's also where the inconsistent hang out. They shoot as fast as the M's, but throw the odd miss or NS. If one gets lucky and doesn't do that, they finish with the M's and get accused of sandbagging, were it a statistical fluke or not.

Hey, I resemble that remark. I have most of my skills for stand and shoots honed pretty well if I keep my head together. With a little practice, I'll regulalry be submitting honest A classifiers most of the time. However, my movement is not even reliably B level and needs work. B is a punishing division because you have to eliminate bad habits and coordinate good habits to get out of it, and it takes a LOT more work (and time and ammo) than getting into B. But all us floundering types do have our moments, which means winning B can be a total crap shoot.

I'm not hiding, I'm jsut a wee bit lost...