dajarrel Posted May 4, 2006 Share Posted May 4, 2006 You come to the line to run El Prez. The course descriptions describes the starting position as facing up range, gun loaded and holstered as per 8.2.1 and so forth (broad paraphrasing ) The RO gives the command to "load and make ready" Upon doing so, the shooter turns up range and assumes the start postion. Does the RO have any beef with him facing uprange before he (the RO) tells him to? We were shooting a practice session the other night and this question was brought up. My contention is that the starting postion as stated by the course description is facing up range and when the RO tells you to LAMR, you are to end up in that postion without any further intervention from the RO. It wasn't a disagreement but we are looking for clarification. tia dj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbadaboom Posted May 4, 2006 Share Posted May 4, 2006 After the LAMR command the shooter faces "Down-range", loads up and holsters and then turns "Up-range" and assumes the start position. The R.O. should then give the "Are you ready...........Stand by" command followed by the buzz/beep of the timer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD McDorce Posted May 4, 2006 Share Posted May 4, 2006 The RO gives the command to "load and make ready" Upon doing so, the shooter turns up range and assumes the start postion. Does the RO have any beef with him facing uprange before he (the RO) tells him to? 8.3.1 “Load And Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”. Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the handgun in accordance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the required start position. At this point, the Range Officer will proceed.Since the start postition is facing uprange, the RO technically already has told the shooter to face uprange (the "make ready" part of LAMR). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted May 4, 2006 Share Posted May 4, 2006 My contention is that the starting postion as stated by the course description is facing up range and when the RO tells you to LAMR, you are to end up in that postion without any further intervention from the RO. I believe you are exactly correct. As long as the gun is holstered and you don't completely leave the starting position, there should be no problem. There is no "now turn around and face uprange" RO command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted May 4, 2006 Share Posted May 4, 2006 After the LAMR command, no further commands from the RO are required for you to make ready and then assume the required start position. Until it looks like you are in the start position and ready to go the RO is supposed to just watch. If you are taking "forever" he might want to say "Shooter Ready" and give you a chance to indicate yes/no, but that is all the RO can actually do other than stop you from an unsafe action during LAMR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted May 4, 2006 Share Posted May 4, 2006 Usually, it's more of a case that you have to remind the shooter to turn. Especially someone who practices the start routine a dozen times. They seem to get all psyched up, then forget to assume the position cause they're focused on the targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 Okay, here's another variation on this (MODS can smack me or split the thread if approariate)... Start position is gun loaded and holstered, facing uprange... Competitor steps in the box, facing uprange but not yet loaded, and stares at you waiting for his/her range commands... Now what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 Brian, you're being bad. We're going to open that "is it coaching to repeat LAMR?" can o' worms! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randyb Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 Start position is gun loaded and holstered, facing uprange...Competitor steps in the box, facing uprange but not yet loaded, and stares at you waiting for his/her range commands... Tell him to face uprange just like it says in LAMR rule 8.3.1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidball Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 "Shooter, face downrange and LOAD AND MAKE READY." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajarrel Posted May 16, 2006 Author Share Posted May 16, 2006 I guess I would tell him to LAMR. If he is dumb/stupid/distracted enough to draw his gun facing uprange, then the obvious DQ would be appropriate. dj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schoonie Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 Brian, This is a simple one, The RO can have a conversation about anything he/she wants to prior to the LAMR command, so the last thing I would say would be "face downrange and Load and Make Ready". I don't want to help a shooter make a mistake and DQ himself due to a mental lapse at the LAMR, therefore, turn his butt around and then start the course of fire! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 Okay, here's another variation on this (MODS can smack me or split the thread if approariate)...Start position is gun loaded and holstered, facing uprange... Competitor steps in the box, facing uprange but not yet loaded, and stares at you waiting for his/her range commands... Now what? You been shooting with Kathy and Dave too? My answer is...it depends. I know Kathy is waiting in the start position so that, at LAMR, she can do a practice turn and draw as she pulls the gun to load it. So, I'd give her the LAMR command. I'd have to know the shooter pretty well to do that though. Most shooters, I would tell them to "face-down range"...and as soon as they did, I'd give them the LAMR (immediately). Since...they might assume they just got it anyway...when they didn't. But, my preferred method is to be positioned in front of (downrange) the start position. That way they can't "stare at you and wait for the range commands" while facing the wrong way for gun handling. That also lets me look for the RO on the clip board and make sure the back of the stage is ready (and I usually ask the clip board RO what the name is on the score sheet to make sure it matches up to the current shooter). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 Okay, thanks for the comments, so here we go and see if it impacts your answer. BTW, this is a real world example from a Nationals a few years ago... Start position: Standing, facing uprange, gun loaded and holstered, hands naturally at sides. Stage Procedure: On signal, turn, then draw and engage targets from within shooting area. First example - Competitor enters box, and stands facing uprange waiting for range commands. Range Officier gives the stage one more quick check. Looks at competitor who is still facing uprange, and issues "LAMR" assuming the competitor will turn downrange before unholstering. Instead the competitor goes for his gun and almost draws directly on his squad (several of whom were going for cover). Fortunately, a quick "STOP" before the gun cleared the holster avoided a big problem. After running the competitor, CRO takes the stage RO's aside and says: "Guys, while I never thought I would see that, let's not assume they know they need to face downrange before pulling their firearm. If necessary, tell them "Face Down Range" to get them oriented in the correct direction." Second example - Competitor enters box, and stands facing uprange waiting for range commands. After looking at each other for a few seconds, the Range Officer says "Face Down Range", and since he now had the competitor where he wanted him, his focus shifted to his one last look at the range before issuing "LAMR". Unfortunately, the competitor turned around, pulled his gun and went for a mag before the Range Officer got him stopped. At this point we have a big problem under 10.5.1. The competitor argued "Why did you break the range commands in half?". The RO stated, "I did not issue you any range commands. I asked you to face down range so you would be ready for LAMR after my final check of the stage". The competitor argued "Yes you did. The command is 'Face Down Range, Load and Make Ready'. Of course, a trip to the rulebook showed that there is no FDRLAMR, only LAMR (FYI, one possible solution is if you see the competitor going for their firearm, immediately issue LAMR to save the DQ, but you can ONLY do this is you are 110% sure the stage is CLEAR). After sorting out this mess, the RM, CRO, and stage RO's had a 'little conference' downrange. The RM was not happy that the RO had told the competitor to 'Face Down Range' as often competitors are used to hearing 'Face Down Range, Load and Make Ready' at their local matches. CRO and stage RO's explained the first situation, and said they certainly did not want to see it repeated, so if they could not say Face Down Range, how where they to get the competitor turned around? Everyone agreed to avoid the 'potential' problem by instead saying "Turn Around". Third example - Competitor enters box, and stands facing uprange waiting for range commands. After looking at each other for a few seconds, the Range Officer says "Turn Around". Competitor immediately spins around and draws his firearm (this one certainly was not expected as this was an M class competitor), so here we go again... I'll admit, this was kind of a tricky question, and I think I knew all possible scenarios since I was there living it (the old-timers on the board might recognize this). While I won't argue that you can talk to the competitor about stuff, once they step in the box, you'll generally hear nothing from me other than the 'approved' range commands under 8.3 (although, occassionally I have been caught yelling "WHOA" instead of "STOP"). Another reason for this is at the high level matches, we do see International competitors that ONLY understand the approved range commands, so the first word out of your mouth is 'assumed' to be LAMR. FWIW, Flex probably nailed this best and I suppose standing in front of the competitor to make sure they are facing the correct decision is a pretty good solution. Just something about standing between the competitor and the downrange berm and preparing to issue LAMR, makes me a little uneasy (I know, I know, it is an 'unloaded gun', so what's to worry about? Well, there was this other time where a competitor was issued LAMR, racked his slide, and a LIVE ROUND EJECTED... but that is another story). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
encoreman Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 Dennis, That is such a simple question, I'm going to let the limo driver answer it. You do know that if you don't say anything they will only wonder if you are dumb. Open your mouth and take all doubt away. LOL only kidding ya know. See ya at the Mississippi Classic on Saturday. Mac P.S. got us any more revolver shooters?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 Just something about standing between the competitor and the downrange berm and preparing to issue LAMR, makes me a little uneasy ... Well...lol...maybe not directly between them and straight down range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 Simple. Just point downrange past the competitor. When He turns to see what you are pointing at, give the command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidball Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 "Shooter, face downrange and LOAD AND MAKE READY." To clarify, and this is what I learned at the Level I seminar three years ago: "Shooter, face downrange and" = pre-range command banter. Kinda like "Are your Fred?" (checking to see if you have the right shooter in the box) or "Do you understand the course of fire" (not yet an official command, just checking for any questions) or "How are you today?" (just being friendly). "LOAD AND MAKE READY" = official range command and beginning of the actual run. I am in TOTAL agreement that once the LAMR is issued, the RO should be all business and stick only to the official commands. I look forward to any critique of the above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 (edited) "Shooter, face downrange and LOAD AND MAKE READY." To clarify, and this is what I learned at the Level I seminar three years ago: "Shooter, face downrange and" = pre-range command banter. Kinda like "Are your Fred?" (checking to see if you have the right shooter in the box) or "Do you understand the course of fire" (not yet an official command, just checking for any questions) or "How are you today?" (just being friendly). "LOAD AND MAKE READY" = official range command and beginning of the actual run. I am in TOTAL agreement that once the LAMR is issued, the RO should be all business and stick only to the official commands. I look forward to any critique of the above. +1 IMHO, the RO and competitor can discuss the merits of a global economy, the latest hairstyles, or the sexual orientation of that last RO who gave him a procedural, but once the official command sequence has begun with LAMR, its go time, and there should be zero variation. I'll echo a little of what Flex said as well...If you know the competitor, and are sure they are going to practice a turn and draw at LAMR, or if at the other end of the spectrum, you have a shooter from a foreign country whom you have never even met, you are going to adjust your approach accordingly. I know that everybody hates it if there is something that is at an RO's discretion, but sometimes in these situations you just need to apply a little common sense...otherwise we would have a 20,000 page rule book that requires a sherpa be assigned to every RO. YMMV, Jeff Edited May 17, 2006 by Barrettone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 Exactly. Its not "coaching" to talk to a shooter unless the LAMR has been already given. Up til then, its just courtesy and common sense. Some people get jittery at a match, especially if they are new..... do you really want to see if someone is ignorant enough to draw facing uprange? Why not point them in the right direction instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caps Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 Exactly. Its not "coaching" to talk to a shooter unless the LAMR has been already given. Up til then, its just courtesy and common sense.Some people get jittery at a match, especially if they are new..... do you really want to see if someone is ignorant enough to draw facing uprange? Why not point them in the right direction instead. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 I *hate* RO banter. Don't talk to me unless you're giving me the range commands - or I talk to you first! If I don't understand the course of fire, I'll ask you my questions, whether you gave me permission to or not (This also signals my brain that the next words out of your mouth won't be THE command) I also really hate having to explain why I'm facing uprange waiting for the command to load and make ready. Erik Warren did the best rant on this, I'll have to go find it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidball Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 I *hate* RO banter. Don't talk to me unless you're giving me the range commands - or I talk to you first! If I don't understand the course of fire, I'll ask you my questions, whether you gave me permission to or not While I appreciate and respect your individual approach to beginning a course of fire, for others, especially someone new to the sport or new to a major match, some friendly banter from the RO before beginning is desirable. I would also point out the following from the range officers creed: I shall always be courteous while maintaining firm control over my range and areas of responsibility. It is my duty to assist all competitors in their attempts to accomplish their goals and not to hinder them by undue harassment and authoritarian behavior. While this does not require "banter", a modicum of small talk before initiating commands can be very useful. Shooter Grrl - I will be sure to observe your desired procedure the next time I have the privilege of being your RO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 other stuff... - My range command and course description reading voice is different from my conversational voice. - Along with that, the LAMR command (and all the commands) needs to be loud and clear. It's not just for you and the shooter. Everybody on the stage needs to know that we are "going guns" (and they might even consider being a bit quite, as a courtesy to the shooter). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 Relax everybody! Chill out. Just relaying an actual example of what can happen by giving LAMR when they are facing the wrong direction (even though 8.3.1 tells them they need to be facing downrange)... OR telling them FACE DOWN RANGE... OR telling them TURN AROUND. All three led to problems here! Also, not saying there should be no pre-stage banter. However, I get the shooter name and stuff out of the way before they get to the box, but once they step in that box, it's generally range commands only... I'll shut up now. Been a long day and headed to Cleveland for a couple of days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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