RIIID Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 This has come up lately in conversations," Do we need a minimum pull weight for Production?" If so what weight would be the bench mark for DA-DA like and DA/SA? I'm of the opinion it's a little late to change now, in 2000 yes but in 2006-7 no. The Division is growing fast and some have invested alot on trigger jobs to lighten and then be told you have to increase the pull weight. It doesn't seem to be a big positive for the Division. Either way one platform will have an advantage. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A_Med Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 This has come up lately in conversations," Do we need a minimum pull weight for Production?"If so what weight would be the bench mark for DA-DA like and DA/SA? I'm of the opinion it's a little late to change now, in 2000 yes but in 2006-7 no. The Division is growing fast and some have invested alot on trigger jobs to lighten and then be told you have to increase the pull weight. It doesn't seem to be a big positive for the Division. Either way one platform will have an advantage. Rich I agree its too late for trigger pull and it should have been too late for the mag release as well IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampleworks Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 Rich, how difficult is it to take a current 2-3# trigger from you and convert it into a 5#? If its not done easily without complete new set of parts, I see myself running L10 or Limited with minor scoreing. Some people don't have the cash to be throwing around for changes every time Sedro feels finicky? What's next? CR belts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 I think minimum trigger pulls in production are a painfull pill to take, but a very necessary one. When people are running around with trigger pulls lighter then those of most commercial singleactions you need to start wondering what does DA still mean? What is the difference between L10 minor and production if the triggers are about the same, you can mill the slide for sights, and you can pretty much gut the interior of the gun? And please don't tell me that the holsters and their location is the big difference as the DOH is about as fast as anything else, I know, I use one. There was a mistake made in allowing things to get this far, but if we don't want to end up with even a worse mess we need to bite the bullet and install a trigger pull min weight limit. This will also help with getting us closer to the IPSC rules, which I couldn't care less about on most days, but USPSA seems to want to make the rules closer every revision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j2fast Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 I see both sides of the argument but I don't agree with changing it now. Even though I could move to L-10 and shoot major since I shoot a 40 it's highly likely I would just scratch my itch to shoot limited. I'm not going to put more money into my main production gun to bump up the trigger pull. I'd just as soon sell it for whatever I could get to help fund a limited blaster. Maybe that's crazy logic but it's how I feel about it right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 I certainly think there should be should additional restrictions on Production Division pistols, but I am not in favor of restricting trigger pull weight. Because of the nature of pivoting triggers which are the normal type encountered on Production Division pistols measuring trigger pull can be problematic as far as obtaining repeatability. I would really hate to see someone bumped to L-10 because of differences in the method of measuring the pull weight. Writing rules that are fair require them to be enforceable at all levels with very different people using very different tools. There would need to be some improvements in the method of measuring the pulls weight, and the requirement to use specific equipment in a specific way before repeatability would be reliabile enough to make it fairly enforceable. I would prefer to see efforts aimed at things such as enforcing the "No external modifications" rule. Things like low mounted BoMars are clearly external mod's but are allowed for some reason. I would also like to see a rule prohibiting the use of any but unaltered factory parts. This would eliminate alot of the highend modification's reducing the cost of a competitive Production Division pistol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 Do you measure the first pull or the second shot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Beaver Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 Do you measure the first pull or the second shot? I believe with the IPSC rule they measure the first shot, which means the second shot can be any weight. The problem with this is that it would kill pistols like Glock and the XD in production. Which is why you will probably never see it happen it the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddjob Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 Too late for that kind of a rule. Even "factory trigger" weights differ (I'm thinking of the Glock 34, 5 lb (?) trigger and the "NY" trigger. I have never heard one complaint about one's trigger weight being an "unfair" advantage in Production or any other division. Holsters....Yes....triggers.....no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caspian_45 Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 I vote for no minimum trigger pull weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 Do you measure the first pull or the second shot? I believe with the IPSC rule they measure the first shot, which means the second shot can be any weight. The problem with this is that it would kill pistols like Glock and the XD in production. Which is why you will probably never see it happen it the US. Hmm .. Glocks seem to be doing just fine in IPSC where they've had this rule for a while. I don't see how it would "kill" them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeInNePa Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 Go ahead, I don't care, I'll sell my G34 to an IDPA shooter. You do realize this would make Production MORE restrictive than SSP, right? Simply amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R/T Performance Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 Are they working toward this if so I need to get a good magwell and big button to shoot L-10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clay1 Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 I am a production shooter and am not in favor of a minimum pull weight for production guns. The constantly wanting to change the rules by some to manipulate them to their own benefit somehow, I find disturbing. I agree with Amidon that there needs to be stability in the rules. The current rule number 6 for USPSA Production reads as follows: 6/ Minimum trigger pull / No I think it has served us well and there is NO reason to change at this point or any other. I don't think that we have to follow the Europeans or any other area of the world and that the US rules are just fine the way they are. If we keep following the other countries we are all going to be shooting politically correct airsoft guns at turtle targets soon enough. Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herky Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 Rick, I like the way you think. This makes sense. Production is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerettaRacer Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 Absoloutly!! There should be a minimum first shot trigger pull!! Why should a true DA be at a disadvantage in the division that was built for DA guns. With the proliferation of "safe action" or similar type guns, which can be tuned similar to single action type triggers, with no re-strike capability, being allowed to call themselves DA and shoot in a DA division, something needs to be done to level the field with a true DA with re-strike capability. My Beretta's have the best Production legal trigger LTT would put on a gun, but I'm still looking at probably a 6-8lb first shot pull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory_k Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeInNePa Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 Absoloutly!! There should be a minimum first shot trigger pull!! Why should a true DA be at a disadvantage in the division that was built for DA guns. With the proliferation of "safe action" or similar type guns, which can be tuned similar to single action type triggers, with no re-strike capability, being allowed to call themselves DA and shoot in a DA division, something needs to be done to level the field with a true DA with re-strike capability. My Beretta's have the best Production legal trigger LTT would put on a gun, but I'm still looking at probably a 6-8lb first shot pull. If there is a trigger pull minimum, it should be for EVERY time the trigger is pulled. Not just the first pull. If I have to shoot with a 5lb trigger for every round, so should you. No more DA/SA with a 2lb SA pull. There, how does it feel when it's your ox being gored ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 (edited) There is always going to be an advantage to some gun and a disadvantage to another. Can someone tell me what the real difference is between current production and L10 minor? We all know that the DOH is about as fast as anything. We all know that you can modify a production gun almost as much as a limited gun as long as you are carefull about keeping it all inside. We all know that some Glock and XD triggers are about the same weight as Limited guns. And you can mill bits of the slide away. Folks in this thread already said that all it would take would be a magwell and they will switch to limited. So tell me, why are you shooting production? If you end up shooting a limited gun anyway .. why not shoot limited. I'm all for allowing a certain amount of custom work but when you end up with a gun that no sane person would feel safe using as a carry gun, I think we have gone to far. Edited to add: I dont think it will actually happen, I just it is a good idea to have this rule. Edited April 1, 2006 by Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bufit323 Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 Absoloutly!! There should be a minimum first shot trigger pull!! Why should a true DA be at a disadvantage in the division that was built for DA guns. With the proliferation of "safe action" or similar type guns, which can be tuned similar to single action type triggers, with no re-strike capability, being allowed to call themselves DA and shoot in a DA division, something needs to be done to level the field with a true DA with re-strike capability. My Beretta's have the best Production legal trigger LTT would put on a gun, but I'm still looking at probably a 6-8lb first shot pull. If there is a trigger pull minimum, it should be for EVERY time the trigger is pulled. Not just the first pull. If I have to shoot with a 5lb trigger for every round, so should you. No more DA/SA with a 2lb SA pull. There, how does it feel when it's your ox being gored ? I guess the problem with that is that production is a DA division. These glocks with 1 pound triggers on the first shot are really like a SA with no external safety. I have never understood how that gun is considered safe. Would anyone in their right mind consider my 226 with hammer back safe? I don't care if their is a limit or not, just set the rules up and stick to them and enforce them. Why do we have a debate as fundamental as this now. This is not something that came up as a result of research or gaming, this could easily be anticipated and regulated. It has not been, don't make up some arbitrary rule now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Stoeger Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 I have thought about this issue quite a bit, and have a few random questions about it: Does it matter? That is to say, does an extremely light trigger really help? How "production" is it to have a sub 3lbs trigger on a gun with no safety? Should a minimum pull weight regulate every pull and not just the first, so as not to slant it in favor of the DA guns? Who (in terms of what sort of equipment they are using) really wouldn't like a minimum pull weight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 I have thought about this issue quite a bit, and have a few random questions about it:1- Does it matter? That is to say, does an extremely light trigger really help? 2- Should a minimum pull weight regulate every pull and not just the first, so as not to slant it in favor of the DA guns? The IPSC experience, where they have a first-shot-pull requirement seems to be that "no" to both 1 and 2 works-- Glocks and DA's like the CZ compete pretty darn equally. 5lb-triggered Glocks are all kinds of popular in IPSC PD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 Does it matter? That is to say, does an extremely light trigger really help? Hmm .. yeah it does. There are margins and grey areas, but it matters. How "production" is it to have a sub 3lbs trigger on a gun with no safety? Not very, people pay for carry trigger jobs which lower the trigger to what .. 4.5lb? And that is on single action guns with thumb and beavertail safeties. Should a minimum pull weight regulate every pull and not just the first, so as not to slant it in favor of the DA guns? There is still an argument to me made that transitioning from DA to SA adds more complexity to the DA/SA trigger then to that of the "Safe Action" triggers. Who (in terms of what sort of equipment they are using) really wouldn't like a minimum pull weight? Clearly lots of people in this thread, my guess is mostly Glock and XD shooters. Of course I could always point at Dave S and his streaks of wins with Glock triggers in IPSC matches which already have this rule in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRG65 Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 If my understanding (read it somewhere not personal conversation) is correct Sevigny (not sure of the spelling) runs a 5# pull so he doesn't have to do as much transition when he shoots international. He kicks our butts. Angus and Matt do about everything they can with the CZ trigger and I seem to remember posts that the DA is around 5#, SA is much lighter. All three are excellent shooters. We currently don't have a pull weight req in the US, but like someone else mentioned Glock is still a player internationally. If the top shooters in US production are meeting some of the international requirements and beating the rest of us whats wrong with the rest of us doing it. All that said. I run a 2# trigger on my Glocks and FO sights on all my competition guns. I really would not want to give up my FO front sights, to comply fully with international rules. But hasn't CZ come out w/ a production gun w/ a Dawson FO? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeInNePa Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 How "production" is it to have a 2lb sa pull on your Production gun. What DA/SA guns are produced with that kind of trigger? How "production" is it to install sights that require the machining of your slide? How "production" is it to replace your stock plastic or aluminum guide rod with a steel one? How "production is it to replace springs? The manufacturer spent a lot of money to decide which spring weights worked the best in their guns. Why do we keep rehashing the same crap over and over? Can't we just leave it alone and shoot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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