Minimum Pull Weight In Production

[Ben Stoeger]

Lets change production division to rocks, then we would have regulate what size rock and eliminate the sling and slingshot.

Maybe we should join the Brady camp and eliminate guns altogether.

If it weren't for past wars we wouldn't have guns now.

If the Japanese hadn't discovered gun powder we could still be using bows & arrows and have straight & recurve & wheely thing divisions.

Huh?

[R/T Performance]

this could be pretty frustrating for someone who has had work done on a gun that might now be useless for competition!

[Tongue-in-cheek-mode]

The whole gun is not really useless: you will need to buy trigger mechanism factory parts and leave them unaltered, to restore the gun to its original configuration and thus be totally legal in PD.

[/Tongue-in-cheek-mode]

Try to buy XD factory trigger compents

[SRT Driver]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if there were an equipment race in Production, everyone that wins would be shooting the same platform.

Like in the early '90's...everyone switched to a hi cap 38 Super in Open or a hi Cap 40 in Limited.

Now we have a Production "equipment race"? Where?

Dave S wins with a Glock, Adam T wins with a CZ, as does Angus, and Matt M, and others. Dave O wins with a Beretta, and John F wins with a Smith. TGO wins with an XD when he plays with Production.

So where is the platform that everyone is switching to? And trigger pulls are as varied as the types.

The bottom line is that there are choices in Production. Pick one that you shoot well, keep the mods internal and go race. If you want to spend the $$..go for it. Minimum pulls are not the answer.

[Ben Stoeger]

The bottom line is that there are choices in Production. Pick one that you shoot well, keep the mods internal and go race. If you want to spend the $$..go for it. Minimum pulls are not the answer.

Great post John. You are right to say that there isn't one winning setup in production. However, I think that there is a perception among many that you need super good trigger to be competitive. This is of course, not the case, but perception is important. Especially in production, the division designed to bring in new shooters.

Would a minimum pull weight help things? I have no idea. But I think it makes for an interesting idea.

[GeorgeInNePa]

Gee the shooting sports are just like every other sport man has played. Every competitor will push the rules as far as he/she can in an effort to win. Some cross the line, most don't, but new rules are rarely the right answer. They to will be pushed to the breaking point only to be replaced by a new set of new rules.

At a certian point screwing around with the margins is just a really poor decision that in the end benefits no one. And to think the IPSC crowd had a good laugh at Bill Wilson's expense last year when IDPA changed it's rules to prevent an "arms race" in SSP.

This is what confuses me. Who is pushing the rules? Answer this question.

In Production Division, trigger jobs are:

A- Legal

B- Illegal

If A, then there is no pushing. If your trigger job produces a 1/4lb trigger pull, it doesn't matter.

[bierman]

My question to all of this is, are there that many production shooters complaining about the "equipment race" that PD has become? I am new to this game, so I honestly don't know.

I haven't really done much to my PD gun (92FS) and I probably won't ever do much to it as it is also my work gun and the dept. armorer would not sign off on a 2.5# SA pull. Do the Glock/XD shooters have an advantage over me because of the trigger pull? I guess, for the first shot, but I have learned that I need to plan my stages a little different to make up for that.

Either way, minimum trigger pull or not, fancy trigger jobs or not, PD is still the "cheapest" way to play this game, IMHO.

[hopalong]

We all have our own "pet" divisions, Mine is LTD and REVO.

Having said that, I do shoot some Production with a box stock G-17.

Since we are discussing triggers ect and rules of modifying production guns here is my Opinion (see my signature line about opinions).

NO MODIFICATIONS!!!

let production be just that!

If it is not offered from the factory then it is illeagle.

remember the KISS meathod!

NOW how SIMPLE would that be?

Hopalong

[Gary Stevens]

From my view point, the momentum is not driven by Production shooters calling for changes. It is driven by other factors such as defining what Production should be as opposed to what it is and has been. It is somewhat like changing the sex of your baby after it is born. It can be done, but the process is likely to be painful for those who are changed.

Before you jump on me, I would be very happy to leave things alone.

Gary

Edited April 4, 2006 by Gary Stevens

[GeorgeInNePa]

We all have our own "pet" divisions, Mine is LTD and REVO.

Having said that, I do shoot some Production with a box stock G-17.

Since we are discussing triggers ect and rules of modifying production guns here is my Opinion (see my signature line about opinions).

NO MODIFICATIONS!!!

let production be just that!

If it is not offered from the factory then it is illeagle.

remember the KISS meathod!

NOW how SIMPLE would that be?

Hopalong

Very simple, until the "perfect" Production gun is offered by one of the factories. Then you'll hear the screams. Do you really want $1500 custom shop Production guns?

[SRT Driver]

The beauty of the rules, as flawed as they may be, is that they are somewhat open ended providing some options.

If you want to shoot it out of the box - great.

If you want to shoot your dept approved duty gun - have at it.

If you want to spend .25c or $2500 - that's your choice.

Do you need a sub 5 lb trigger to win? No..but the option is there for those that feel they "need" them.

Let's not start an NRA Action Pistol-esque trigger pull frenzy in USPSA!

[JD McDorce]

Maybe I'm a bit naive since I'm fairly new to the sport, but in looking at the rule book it becomes apparent that there was a conscious decision to identify Minimum Trigger Pull as "No" in US Appendix D9. It certainly tends to beg the question of what is behind the move (apparently) afoot to change it to "Yes". Any insight here would be beneficial.

I'm a little concerned with the prospect that I have a 9mm listed on the US Production Gun List, that meets all of the US Appendix D9 guidelines, that may be at risk for future use in US Production Division. Particularly with little or no information regarding what has changed since the current rules were drafted to prompt a change in course. What I find to be extremely troubling is that most of the discussion regarding the future direction of this Division appears to be occurring behind closed doors.

[spook]

The beauty of the rules, as flawed as they may be, is that they are somewhat open ended providing some options.

If you want to shoot it out of the box - great.

If you want to shoot your dept approved duty gun - have at it.

If you want to spend .25c or $2500 - that's your choice.

Do you need a sub 5 lb trigger to win? No..but the option is there for those that feel they "need" them.

Let's not start an NRA Action Pistol-esque trigger pull frenzy in USPSA!

Nice posrt SRT!

I always felt that the rules aren't there to make sure everyone uses the same equipment, but to make sure that the people who use box-stock equipment aren't handicapped.

[Clay1]

Whatever happened to the concept of rules stability? I won't rant too much but the concept of continually changing the rules I find very frustrating.

Let's talk about production guns for a moment. Why are they built with 12 pound triggers? Is it so that they make good competition guns or is it so that the legal department of the gun manufacturer has less headaches?

Yes, some very talented people can win with heavier triggers, but if it made no difference at all why would open shooters and most competitors have not only a lighter trigger but a cleaner, crisper trigger if given the option. Because we mere mortals shoot better with a better trigger. If the benchrest boys shot fantastic groups with 5 pound triggers on their long guns they would do it, but they don't. I know that this game isn't 1000 yard shooting with a rifle but open guns have very nice triggers because they are more conducive to better shot placement.

I like Production because it is still much less expensive to shoot. It's not just about DA guns, it's about shooting 9mm ammo and being competitive in the division.

Gun manufacturers want their guns to win matches but they don't produce them for that purpose, just because some lawyer said build it with a crappy trigger don't make me shoot one.

If you think this will solve all of the production issues go read the IPSC village posts and get back to me.

Think stability and quit trying to change the rules.

Rick

[rubberneck]

This is what confuses me. Who is pushing the rules? Answer this question.

In Production Division, trigger jobs are:

A- Legal

B- Illegal

If A, then there is no pushing. If your trigger job produces a 1/4lb trigger pull, it doesn't matter.

What I was getting at is if you changed the rules to limit pull weight competitors will push those new rules to the limit, some will even cross that line in an attempt to gain an advantage. It is sort of like trying to squeeze a bar of soap. The harder you clamp down the more like it is that it will squirt out the sides. I don't think you and I are on different sides of this arguement. I think we both agree that the rules should stay as is.

[GeorgeInNePa]

This is what confuses me. Who is pushing the rules? Answer this question.

In Production Division, trigger jobs are:

A- Legal

B- Illegal

If A, then there is no pushing. If your trigger job produces a 1/4lb trigger pull, it doesn't matter.

What I was getting at is if you changed the rules to limit pull weight competitors will push those new rules to the limit, some will even cross that line in an attempt to gain an advantage. It is sort of like trying to squeeze a bar of soap. The harder you clamp down the more like it is that it will squirt out the sides. I don't think you and I are on different sides of this arguement. I think we both agree that the rules should stay as is.

Yes we are. I guess it's time to email our AD's and tell THEM to leave the rules alone, just so they are clear.

[Z-man]

I just received a response to an email I sent my AD and he hadn't heard much specific discussion on the topic but would pass on any emails or thoughts individuals have on the subject. I'm assuming that no news here is good news (for those of us who don't want such a change).

QUOTE(Skywalker @ Apr 3 2006, 10:19 AM)

QUOTE(Z-man @ Apr 3 2006, 04:15 PM)

this could be pretty frustrating for someone who has had work done on a gun that might now be useless for competition!

[Tongue-in-cheek-mode]

The whole gun is not really useless: you will need to buy trigger mechanism factory parts and leave them unaltered, to restore the gun to its original configuration and thus be totally legal in PD.

[/Tongue-in-cheek-mode]

Try to buy XD factory trigger compents

That's what I'm faced with now... so needless to say I let my AD hear my frustrations! If others have heard more about discussions occuring, I'd be interested to know what is being said by the "high-ups".

Edited April 4, 2006 by Z-man

[SRT Driver]

The other aspect that escapes some is that many new shooters are coached to buy a pistol that fits in multiple divisions.

I'll use a Glock 35 as an example. Without a magwell, you can compete in Ltd, L10, and Prod.

So a guy goes out and buys a 2lb trigger. Shoots in Prod - Ltd- and L10 for a while, and now his gun is not legal for Production.

Some might say that "he can still shoot Production..just switch triggers or buy another gun" Yes, but if he makes it Production legal with a 5lb trigger, for example, is it really competitive in the other divisions?

But who shoots a 5lb trigger in a Limited gun?

If the gun is the same, except for the # of rounds in the mag, the transition between divisions is easier and the shooter is more apt to play in multiple divsions.

2 more c.

[JD McDorce]

Assuming that we were looking at something similar to the Appendix D4 minimum first shot trigger pull of 5 pounds, I'm not certain where it would leave the Glock 34 and 35. Glock advertises standard trigger pull for both models of "~4.5 lbs". Certainly Glock 35 owners would have the option to shoot Limited or L10 Major. Glock 34 owners would effectively be SOL unless they chose to shoot Minor in Limited or L10 (although there may be some adventuresome enough to attempt to build a Major Open gun out of a Glock 34). Either that or find a kit or 'smith to increase the trigger pull.

[ampleworks]

It'd be nice to be able to go out and plop back in factory parts but seeing how Springfield is too anal about selling them, XD shooters are flat out boned.

Now we go on how to measure this supposed trigger weight. Every person is going to measure it different. We will have people who can play Production one week and the next they're bumped to Open.

Until a universal gadget is manufacturered to exact specifications, as in you put the gun in the contraption, press a switch and it measures.

[R/T Performance]

It'd be nice to be able to go out and plop back in factory parts but seeing how Springfield is too anal about selling them, XD shooters are flat out boned.

Now we go on how to measure this supposed trigger weight. Every person is going to measure it different. We will have people who can play Production one week and the next they're bumped to Open.

Until a universal gadget is manufacturered to exact specifications, as in you put the gun in the contraption, press a switch and it measures.

Sounds like a plan to make some good money off every uspsa club LOL

[Derek45]

Just My opinion. . . .

I don't think we need rules on minimum trigger pull weights in any division.

It's too late to change horses mid stream.

[Steve Moneypenny]

JD glock 34 owners are not production shooters in IPSC because it doesn't fit in the box.

[JD McDorce]

JD glock 34 owners are not production shooters in IPSC because it doesn't fit in the box.

a ) The reference to App D4 was to quote an existing example of a first shot trigger pull, which already exists for the "International" community.

b ) The Glock 34 is legal under USPSA Production rules

c ) Unless I am missing something, I do not see where "the box" applies to IPSC Production (at least in App D4). Since the Glock 34 does not appear on the IPSC Production Gun List, it is not legal for IPSC Production (with barrel length and, potentially, trigger pull becoming secondary items).

[GmanCdp]

Glock 34 not legal???? good..now can i get my classification tossed??

[Gary Stevens]

As Steve said the G34/35 is not on the approved gun list for "IPSC" and if you have an "IPSC" classification using this gun, it should be tossed.

However, they are on the "USPSA" approved gun list and any classification earned with these guns would not be tossed.

One has to remember we operate on two different levels and equipment levels in some areas of the rulebook.

Gary