Minimum Pull Weight In Production

[LPatterson]

Don't change the rules now and negate guns shooters already have. Glock & XD's are not double action they are marketing hipe for the stupid & unimformed masses. Police have had lots move ADs with Glocks than when they were able to carry cocked & locked 1911s.

[BerettaRacer]

Absoloutly!! There should be a minimum first shot trigger pull!!

Why should a true DA be at a disadvantage in the division that was built for DA guns. With the proliferation of "safe action" or similar type guns, which can be tuned similar to single action type triggers, with no re-strike capability, being allowed to call themselves DA and shoot in a DA division, something needs to be done to level the field with a true DA with re-strike capability. My Beretta's have the best Production legal trigger LTT would put on a gun, but I'm still looking at probably a 6-8lb first shot pull.

If there is a trigger pull minimum, it should be for EVERY time the trigger is pulled. Not just the first pull. If I have to shoot with a 5lb trigger for every round, so should you. No more DA/SA with a 2lb SA pull.

There, how does it feel when it's your ox being gored ?

Must be one of those guys shooting a single action gun in a DA division, LOL

[EricW]

Why do we keep rehashing the same crap over and over? Can't we just leave it alone and shoot?

Amen!

IMO USPSA Production division is flawed, but what's done is done, and it is what it is. Continually screwing with the rules, negating people's investments, and fostering an atmosphere of fear and uncertainty is doing 100X more harm to the sport than the shortcomings of USPSA Production rules. People are not going to invest in the sport and stick with it, when they don't have a clue what tomorrow is going to bring.

If people really care about the health and welfare of Production Division, leave it the heck alone.

[ampleworks]

Bill Wilson's little game put the XD in ESP because its single action and so says the wonderful BATF, so why should it have a big long DA type of pull to it?

Rich's work makes the XD trigger what it should be.

I could care less if Dave could take a Glock out of the box at your local watering hole and win a match with it or not, the fact remains some people just flat out have the skill, others have to make up the ground with gear.

I'm still awaiting for someone to throw another hissy over XDers using a one piece guide rod with a Wolff spring instead of Springfield's inferior/defective design.

[SRT Driver]

Why should a true DA be at a disadvantage in the division that was built for DA guns.

If you choose to shoot with a "disadvantage" so be it. If you shoot best with a 6 lb DA pull, it's not a "disadvantage."

We still have a choice. And if you don't like the rules, shoot Limited. The rules are what they are and constant changing is not the solution.

[R/T Performance]

WOW I had no idea shooting was so similar to racing cars.

Yes I shoot A 5 inch xd with fiber sights , a solid guide rod and a 2.5# Trigger job.Yes it is safe I would even consider carrying it.

If you are going to do away with trigger jobs all together might as well be using concealment holster an mag pouches and cover shirts.

Might as well make everybody shoot store bought ammo also.

But that is what makes this sport so attractive.Differnt is good everyone wants options

otherwise whats next we gonna be like Iroc and be issued a gun at every match to be sure nobody tampered with them.

I am fairly new to this sport and think they need to decide and stick with the rules .I am not going to replace my gear every year.I shoot production because I believe it is an entry level I can compete with a fairly low expense.

A lot of my buddy are bumping up to l10 cause of a shifted mag release.

But other can pull a mag button from anther model and thats OK??

Edited April 2, 2006 by R/T Performance

[Loves2Shoot]

Bill Wilson's little game put the XD in ESP because its single action and so says the wonderful BATF, so why should it have a big long DA type of pull to it?

It shouldn't and almost everyone who's seen what the XD's trigger should be like has "taken care" of the factory design. I've done well over 20 triggers now, and I'm a little nobody, so people really want the trigger once they try it. I could use the cash taking them back to sucky stock triggers, but that would be lame.

Changing the rules would be a boon the the Sig and Berretta folk and piss off the Glock/XD/CZ crowd (the majority of production shooters) so I don't see it being a real issue in the US.

It not the rules, it's the nature of people that's the problem, althought the rules as they stand are far from ideal. There are always people who will push the rules as far as they go instead of focusing that energy on improving their shooting. They just sort of ruin it for the "new guys" who want to get into the sport and feel "competitive" for $500-$700, which was why the class was created in the first place wasn't it. Sort of to avoid the "arms race" right?

[bufit323]

Changing the rules would be a boon the the Sig and Berretta folk and piss off the Glock/XD/CZ crowd (the majority of production shooters) so I don't see it being a real issue in the US.

Not to hijack, but why do you see this rule helping Sig (or sig shooters)? My 226 trigger is already tricked out to compete with my club's glockers. I would have to change as well (assuming that 5 lbs was made the rule)

[Loves2Shoot]

Because they have a heavier first pull, and since the measure the first pull (as posted above) you could set it to 5 lbs, and have 2 lb SA pulls, this would be seen by many to be an advantage, so they would buy the Sigs and Berrettas.

My stock Sig 226 will compete with any Glock or XD, without mods I have an older one that has a sweet SA break for a bone stock German made gun. If the rule changed I would shoot my Sig in Production over the XD, but that's just my preference.

[spook]

Where I'm from, there's a minimum 5 lbs. rule. All kinds of guns win. Lately, a guy with a 6lbs. Para LDA trigger is kicking ass, but it has been a Glock, CZ75, CZSP01 and a Para LDA so far. The 5 lbs. rule seems perfect for making DA/SA guns run with Glock type guns.

As an outsider, I would say that a minimum trigger pull on Production USPSA is a difficult question, because you're dealing with a heap of guns that were built for the current rules for over 6 years.

Both IPSC and USPSA PD rules are flawed (too much discussion still going on after 6 years of existence). I think both organizations have learnt a lot from creating Production Division. Unfortunately the shooters are the ones who have to suffer from the learning experience.

[Chuck Anderson]

For anyone that thinks a minimum trigger pull will solve any bickering, check out the issues that are still going on over IPSC's Production rules. It seems like every week or so there is a new argument over some facet of the IPSC Production rules. Whether it's refinishing the gun or being able to replace parts and actually fit them. They can't even decide on what minor detailing or polishing is. I'm not saying that IPSC rules are worse than USPSA. What I am saying is that just adding rules doesn't fix anything.

I personally don't like the idea of a minimum trigger pull weight. I shot a Glock with a 6-7 lb trigger all last year and only recently switched to a lighter trigger. I've also just received an SP-01 that I shot for the first time today. I certainly see both sides. With no minimum, striker fired pistols have an advantage on 12 shots at a 12 stage match. Pretty minimal. If you put a trigger limit, like IPSC, at 5 lbs, then the DA/SA guns have the advantage for every other shot at the match.

The only way a trigger pull limit is equitable is to have different pull limits, i.e. DA first shot 5 lbs, SA 3 lbs and striker fired 3 or 4 lbs. This would be a pain in the butt to enforce.

And for the folks that don't think that striker fired guns should be in Production, I figure I'm on pretty even ground shooting a mostly stock Glock 17 against "true" DA guns like the 40 oz SP-01 and the Beretta 92 Steel.

[RIIID]

Why all the rehashing of a driven into the ground issue, I don't know. Give your Area Director a call or an e-mail and tell them it's not a good thing to have a minimun trigger pull this late in the game.

Rich

Edited April 2, 2006 by RIIID

[JFD]

Production should have allowed no equipment mods besides grip tape, but what's done is done. Leave the rules alone.

[Loves2Shoot]

How about a new provisional division, "stock production?" Sort of like the SS for L10.

ps. I think Lawman is spot on.

Edited April 2, 2006 by Loves2Shoot

[GeorgeInNePa]

How about a new provisional division, "stock production?" Sort of like the SS for L10.

ps. I think Lawman is spot on.

No, no, wait I got it. How about DA Production, Striker Production, and we can have Single stack L-10 and Double Wide L-10, Moon clip Revo and Speedloader Revo and...

Oh Hell, why not just hand out trophies to everyone at sign-up?

Just saw this in IDPA Raising the Power Floor in the IDPA Forum on this site>

As its been said before, PF's, trigger pulls and types of trigger actions, light guns & heavy guns, different sights, are not going to win a match, they are a small part of the end result. In the end, the best shooter is going to win. But, if you feel your being creamed by someones equipment, then change your own, don't try and change what others shoot.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

Edited April 2, 2006 by GeorgeInNePa

[Z-man]

Arguments aside, how realistic is a change in the rules? Is this really being considered by those in charge? I can't imagine the number of people frustrated by the change after putting money into their guns for a trigger job. If this is a realistic possibility, how might one express their disagreement with the policy change (i.e. who would we talk to)?

As to my own thoughts on the matter, I don't know why there is such a concern. Even in a "production" division you'll have a race to find an advantage in guns and accessories. If its fine for me to spend $100 to get a custom trigger dropped to 5lbs., what's the difference from paying the same to drop it to 3? Either way people are spending money to customize their "stock" guns. I think a change like this will only push people out of the division. My .02.

[caps]

When I was still living in Canada, we had the minimum trigger pull and it worked great coz the IPSC rules didn't let you get trigger jobs done and it was the best way to keep people honest.

[Chuck Anderson]

When I was still living in Canada, we had the minimum trigger pull and it worked great coz the IPSC rules didn't let you get trigger jobs done and it was the best way to keep people honest.

That's great except I know several competitors, even a couple from Canada, that do have trigger jobs done. I know for a fact that several DA/SA guns that competed at the World Shoot had some pretty extensive trigger work done. Several of the guns on my squad had 5-6 lb DA pulls and 1-2 lb SA triggers. IPSC rules say that you can change factory parts but can't modify them. What about CZ factory trigger parts that require fitting to work. Apparently that's allowed. IPSC hasn't figured out what they want to mean by their trigger work restriction. I guarantee that there are a good number of shooters, at the IPSC level, that have trigger jobs done, and there's no way to tell.

[spook]

When I was still living in Canada, we had the minimum trigger pull and it worked great coz the IPSC rules didn't let you get trigger jobs done and it was the best way to keep people honest.

That's great except I know several competitors, even a couple from Canada, that do have trigger jobs done. I know for a fact that several DA/SA guns that competed at the World Shoot had some pretty extensive trigger work done. Several of the guns on my squad had 5-6 lb DA pulls and 1-2 lb SA triggers. IPSC rules say that you can change factory parts but can't modify them. What about CZ factory trigger parts that require fitting to work. Apparently that's allowed. IPSC hasn't figured out what they want to mean by their trigger work restriction. I guarantee that there are a good number of shooters, at the IPSC level, that have trigger jobs done, and there's no way to tell.

Very true. Trigger jobs are not allowed in IPSC, but minor detailing and polishing is. There is a large grey area where "trigger job" runs into "polishing and detailing".

Fact remains that no matter how much you polish or detail, you are still stuck with a 5lbs. trigger. There is a smaller gap between the "bone stock" shooters and the tweakers in IPSC Production.

I tried Adam Tyc's gun and the trigger was awfully heavy (closer to 7 or 8 lbs. DA than 5 lbs.). SA it was still around 3.5 lbs.

[RIIID]

Z-man,

Yes.

[Z-man]

So this is really being considered by those in charge? At what stage in the discussion is it? I just emailed my area director... this could be pretty frustrating for someone who has had work done on a gun that might now be useless for competition!

[Bigbadaboom]

Production Division has turned into the "Equipment Race " that it was designed to avoid. We could destroy an anvil with a rubber mallet.

[rubberneck]

Gee the shooting sports are just like every other sport man has played. Every competitor will push the rules as far as he/she can in an effort to win. Some cross the line, most don't, but new rules are rarely the right answer. They to will be pushed to the breaking point only to be replaced by a new set of new rules.

At a certian point screwing around with the margins is just a really poor decision that in the end benefits no one. And to think the IPSC crowd had a good laugh at Bill Wilson's expense last year when IDPA changed it's rules to prevent an "arms race" in SSP.

[Skywalker]

this could be pretty frustrating for someone who has had work done on a gun that might now be useless for competition!

[Tongue-in-cheek-mode]

The whole gun is not really useless: you will need to buy trigger mechanism factory parts and leave them unaltered, to restore the gun to its original configuration and thus be totally legal in PD.

[/Tongue-in-cheek-mode]

Edited April 3, 2006 by Skywalker

[LPatterson]

Lets change production division to rocks, then we would have regulate what size rock and eliminate the sling and slingshot.

Maybe we should join the Brady camp and eliminate guns altogether.

If it weren't for past wars we wouldn't have guns now.

If the Japanese hadn't discovered gun powder we could still be using bows & arrows and have straight & recurve & wheely thing divisions.