driver8M3 Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 You're absolutely correct. And, the Area-8 director *has* kept the President, as well as the full Board, apprised of the situation as it has developed, as well as being open to all kinds of possible alternatives.i'm sure that's true...however, it seems none of us area 8 members were informed of the situation until he had already reached a conclusion-NO AREA 8 MATCH IN 2006. when things started looking grim, why was there no public call for help from the area membership? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sestock Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 You're absolutely correct. And, the Area-8 director *has* kept the President, as well as the full Board, apprised of the situation as it has developed, as well as being open to all kinds of possible alternatives.i'm sure that's true...however, it seems none of us area 8 members were informed of the situation until he had already reached a conclusion-NO AREA 8 MATCH IN 2006. when things started looking grim, why was there no public call for help from the area membership? Every Match Director and Section Coordinator was aware of the situation. There was a series of group e-mails and individual contacts made concerning the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 (edited) Self Deleted. Edited January 20, 2006 by Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 that there is no precedent for not having an area match conducted Actually, there is. The most recent occurance was 3 or 4 years ago, when a club could not be found within the geographic borders of Area-3, willing and able to hold the Area-3 match. Some of you may recall that the match was eventually put on the ground... at a club in Area-5. It appears that, at a minimum, the president must at least be notified of a need or concern within Area 8, so that he may intervene and possibly address / remedy the situation that the Area Director is having difficulty with. Or am I reading into things? You're absolutely correct. And, the Area-8 director *has* kept the President, as well as the full Board, apprised of the situation as it has developed, as well as being open to all kinds of possible alternatives. Again, I won't speak for the A8 director, but... from what I have seen, he's done what he could.... and I *truly* hope that this "crisis" will result in one or more clubs stepping up, rather than just a round of criticism for a guy who has worked really hard on your behalf. Bruce Sorry if I wasn't clear...I meant a precedent for not having a match at all...not simply having one outside the Area's boundries, as was the case you mentioned. I would agree that Mr. George Jones works EXTREMELY hard on behalf of Area 8 and USPSA as a whole. I have had the pleasure of meeting him on several occasions, and have always found him to be a very motivated and a well-intentioned individual who reprepresents his constituents well. I was only questioning whether "the call had went out" to try and rally the troops, or possibly find a venue in a bordering state next to Area 8 as happened a few years ago with the Area 3 incident. I hope the match is salvaged. Bigger doesn't always mean better. I say, down-size the match, and advertise it as such. I think the match is simply plagued by success and constantly having to be bigger and better year after year (is Texas part of Area 8?). Let's get back to basics, and reset the cycle. After all, something is far better than nothing. My .02, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 (edited) It's well past 1:00am and I just got home from work. It's late, I'm tired, so I will try to choose my words very carefully. My apologies for not responding sooner but I generally do not read this forum unless a member draws my attention to a thread of interest. I have never before posted here so I had to register. I will make some short comments -- 1. The current status of the 2006 Area 8 match did not occur in a vacuum. Since last September, I have sent several group e-mails to all Area 8 Match Directors and Section Coordinators. I asked for replies from any club/venue interested in hosting the match. By the end of December, no venue had stepped forward. Please understand that some venues had some very legitimate reasons for declining. Some simply did not respond. Keep in mind that I cannot force a match on anyone. A club/range has to want the match. Volunteers only need apply. 2. As concerns informing every Area 8 member of the status of the match, I saw no need to do that until yesterday. I do not have the ability to do so and leave that to the Match Directors. I did respond to every individual inquiry I received. 3. In early January, I explored two last minute potential options. Neither one was acceptable for a variety of reasons. No, I will not discuss the specifics of the discussions. 4. I have two primary concerns in evaluating a potential match. Match quality is first. I define that as good stages, good officiating, and good value for the shooter. The other concern is financial success. Unlike other organizations, our Area matches cannot operate at a loss. We are obligated to break even (which really means that we make a profit and disburse the remaining funds in a documented manner). Area 8 has no reserve funds to make up a deficit. So, if I suspect that conditions surrounding the match might reduce attendance and lead to an uncertain financial result, I have to make a very early judgement call. As of last week, that is exactly what I did. 5. I approach all these things with the expectation that the road to success involves compromise. But compromise takes the involvement of both parties. It's very hard to compromise when faced with non-negotiable conditions. 'Nuff said. 6. Once I ran out of acceptable options, I placed the announcement on the Area 8 website. Having done that yesterday, I fully expected two things to happen. The first thing - a number of shooters would be disappointed and/or irate. The second thing - someone would step up and we might just be able to put something reasonable together. Both my suspicions were correct. In short, I have not given up. I will try until there are no options remaining, but that does not mean that we should settle for less than the best we can do. That's my story. If I've misspoken or misspelled anything, well, it's late! George Edited January 20, 2006 by George Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 What is the going rate these days for the host club to receive per shooter at an Area level match? Does anyone have an example from any previous Area match? I know our host club gets a boatload of money from hosting cowboy matches, and I'm not sure if the USPSA matches would generate enough revenue to gain their interest. BamBam, can you define a "Boatload" of money? Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Getting a club to host an Area Championship can be TOUGH! A few years ago, Area 7 almost had no Area Championship. Jon Whitmore came to the rescue when he agreed to change the NY State Championship to a combined NY State Championship/Area Championship. The match was great, however, the fact remains that we did not have a separate, dedicated "Area Championship" but a shared designation. It's almost a feast or famine situation - sometimes you have multiple clubs who what to host the big event, and sometimes you have none. Now, just try to imagine what it's like trying to negotiate for the Nationals venues . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeInNePa Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 It's well past 1:00am and I just got home from work. It's late, I'm tired, so I will try to choose my words very carefully. My apologies for not responding sooner but I generally do not read this forum unless a member draws my attention to a thread of interest. I have never before posted here so I had to register.I will make some short comments -- 1. The current status of the 2006 Area 8 match did not occur in a vacuum. Since last September, I have sent several group e-mails to all Area 8 Match Directors and Section Coordinators. I asked for replies from any club/venue interested in hosting the match. By the end of December, no venue had stepped forward. Please understand that some venues had some very legitimate reasons for declining. Some simply did not respond. Keep in mind that I cannot force a match on anyone. A club/range has to want the match. Volunteers only need apply. 2. As concerns informing every Area 8 member of the status of the match, I saw no need to do that until yesterday. I do not have the ability to do so and leave that to the Match Directors. I did respond to every individual inquiry I received. 3. In early January, I explored two last minute potential options. Neither one was acceptable for a variety of reasons. No, I will not discuss the specifics of the discussions. 4. I have two primary concerns in evaluating a potential match. Match quality is first. I define that as good stages, good officiating, and good value for the shooter. The other concern is financial success. Unlike other organizations, our Area matches cannot operate at a loss. We are obligated to break even (which really means that we make a profit and disburse the remaining funds in a documented manner). Area 8 has no reserve funds to make up a deficit. So, if I suspect that conditions surrounding the match might reduce attendance and lead to an uncertain financial result, I have to make a very early judgement call. As of last week, that is exactly what I did. 5. I approach all these things with the expectation that the road to success involves compromise. But compromise takes the involvement of both parties. It's very hard to compromise when faced with non-negotiable conditions. 'Nuff said. 6. Once I ran out of acceptable options, I placed the announcement on the Area 8 website. Having done that yesterday, I fully expected two things to happen. The first thing - a number of shooters would be disappointed and/or irate. The second thing - someone would step up and we might just be able to put something reasonable together. Both my suspicions were correct. In short, I have not given up. I will try until there are no options remaining, but that does not mean that we should settle for less than the best we can do. That's my story. If I've misspoken or misspelled anything, well, it's late! George George, Thank you for posting. It's always best for everyone to get the info from the source instead of second or thrid hand. I hope you can get something together for our Area. I(and many others) would even support a smaller, cheaper, trophy only match. If you get the time, you should hang out and post more often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamBam Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 What is the going rate these days for the host club to receive per shooter at an Area level match? Does anyone have an example from any previous Area match? I know our host club gets a boatload of money from hosting cowboy matches, and I'm not sure if the USPSA matches would generate enough revenue to gain their interest. BamBam, can you define a "Boatload" of money? Jim Jim - It was my understanding that the local club makes over $10 thousand on their big once-yearly cowboy match. Not that IPSC can compete with that kind of money (since cowboy has a lot less overhead expense), but IPSC has to be reasonable in what it offers to inconvenience the clubs members who will not have use of the range for the better part of the week while setting up and running an Area match. What is the amount per shooter that goes back to the host club when the entrance fees for these IPSC Area matches are in the $150 a person range??? Does anyone know? There is a lot of inuendo about money being the root of the problem but no real numbers, though for all the years we've been doing this there ought to be some kind of precedence. There must be some detailed accounting records from prior Area matches, so can anyone shed light on what has been done in the past? Rob Boudrie perhaps? I thought you had posted the final accounting once for an Area 7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Rob Boudrie perhaps? I thought you had posted the final accounting once for an Area 7. In past years, the profit to the host club has been around $2K. I have not done a good a job of hounding the Area 7 match treasurer from 2005 for a report, however, I will get one from him and post it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sestock Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 $150 for an Area Match?? Isn't that kind of high? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 I have nothing to do with any of this other than I shot the A8 last year and had alot of fun and was looking forward to it again this year. Last year IIRC the entry fee was $115, the results posted show 334 shooters last year which is $38,410 So there is a number for you to ask what went where Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sestock Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 (edited) Here is a link to the 2003 & 2004 Area 8 Financial Reports. http://www.uspsa8.org/docs/2004A8financialreport.pdf http://www.uspsa8.org/docs/Match%20Abbrevi...al%20Report.pdf Topton Range Fees 2003 $1500 2004 $1700 EH 2005 Range Fees $7 per shooter, so approx $2200 Edited January 20, 2006 by Sestock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 (edited) From doing research on a venue to host the BE Forum match, it seemed like a number around $3-5K was what would be considered reasonable for an IPSC match, including a couple of setup days. If more than a couple of days were needed, you might pay in the neighborhood of a $500-1K per day for setup. The match has to pay for a lot of stuff - staff meals and hotels (and, in some cases, travel), supplies (targets, pasters, paint, target sticks, staples, batteries, etc), prize table items, mission count, porta-potties, equipment rentals, prop construction materials, score sheets, match booklets, mailing results, etc. The quality of those items is generally in direct proportion to the cost of the match. You can trim some of that by not having a prize table - and not all prize table stuff is paid for by the match. Also, in some cases, some money is held aside as seed money for the next year's match. It ain't cheap. I could see PASA wanting $10-20K to host back to back nationals there - if not more. One club for a weekend?? That would seem pretty darn steep to me... It would basically add $50 to your match fee for a match that size... Edited January 20, 2006 by XRe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamBam Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 Here is a link to the 2003 & 2004 Area 8 Financial Reports.http://www.uspsa8.org/docs/2004A8financialreport.pdf http://www.uspsa8.org/docs/Match%20Abbrevi...al%20Report.pdf Topton Range Fees 2003 $1500 2004 $1700 EH 2005 Range Fees $7 per shooter, so approx $2200 Thanks for the quick research Sestock --- It seems the historical rate for hosting Area 8 yielded $5-$7 per person to the home club. So the next thing we need to know is how close Old Bridge got to that price range with their offer, before anyone starts pointing fingers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sestock Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 Thanks for the quick research Sestock ---It seems the historical rate for hosting Area 8 yielded $5-$7 per person to the home club. So the next thing we need to know is how close Old Bridge got to that price range with their offer, before anyone starts pointing fingers. Is money the only issue with Old Bridge? What about the magazine restrictions? Does that eliminate Open and Limited from the mix, if it does then this would be a really small Area match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 I have no direct knowledge of the discussions between A8 Director George Jones and Old Bridge, but having attended the 2002 Area 8 Factory Gun Match at Old Bridge, as well as the 2002 Area 8 Race Gun Match at Topton, Topton generated 202 entries, while Old Bridge generated 136. Some of that difference in turnout may have been due to the relative newness of the new divisions ---- but some of it may have also had to do with both the realities and misconceptions of New Jersey Firearms Laws. If you read George's post carefully, he talks about the requirement of a balanced budget for an Area match. I don't know the specifics, nor do I want to, but I assume that there was a concern over the budget proposal. I know the parties involved on both sides of the discussion and I'm certain of only two things: That Old Bridge put forth a good faith estimate/offer, based on what they'd need to run the match and satisfy their general membership; and that George evaluated that proposal fairly and decided that it could not meet USPSA's balanced budget requirement. It's business --- not personal. I'm sure all parties would have preferred to have their requirements line up...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 What about the magazine restrictions? Does that eliminate Open and Limited from the mix[?] That's a very good question. The 15-round limit would seem to be an across the board thing (i.e. doesn't only apply to NJ subjects), nyet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 What about the magazine restrictions? Does that eliminate Open and Limited from the mix, if it does then this would be a really small Area match. I believe the Old Bridge proposal was to host a factory gun type area match, i.e. Production, L10, SS, and BRT (or Revolver) divisions only..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandankenpo Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 I hope this can be worked out, it will really be a shame to lose this match this year, alot of shooters from this area only shoot area 8 they don't have the time to travel to other areas to shoot a major match Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syme71 Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 I hope you can get something together for our Area. I(and many others) would even support a smaller, cheaper, trophy only match. +1 I hope something can be worked out. I shoot at OB regularly. Great people, great venue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 I'd go even if it was only a Factory Gun only type match. Just as long as Jim Norman doesn't try using those IPSC rules I know he loves so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 (edited) Guys there has been a lot of dancing around the issue of money, and how much the parent club has asked. It seems that for some reason George and Jim are both not publishing that number and I will respect their choice. I'll just say that it was more then Tapton and less then most numbers you have seen in this thread for Cowboy matches. It also would have made the total amount going to the club fit very nicely into that $500-$1000/day bracket given a 5 day range closing. Yes it would have been more expensive that traditional club "takes". Yes the match would have been a factory gun match so the final number may or may have not worked out. Yes, central New Jersey is a LOT more expensive then pretty much any other non-metropolitan spot on earth and the cost of business is much higher. Our club membership is $300 per year. Asking 500 members to forego range priviligies for a week would have cost more then in other places. Edited to add: Old Bridge does put 7 stages matches EVERY month. You can always come down and join us. We normaly get between 60 and 75 shooters, so what's a few more Edited January 21, 2006 by Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeInNePa Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 SNIP6. Once I ran out of acceptable options, I placed the announcement on the Area 8 website. Having done that yesterday, I fully expected two things to happen. The first thing - a number of shooters would be disappointed and/or irate. The second thing - someone would step up and we might just be able to put something reasonable together. Both my suspicions were correct. In short, I have not given up. I will try until there are no options remaining, but that does not mean that we should settle for less than the best we can do. That's my story. If I've misspoken or misspelled anything, well, it's late! George I just re-read what George Jones posted, and I think we all missed the part in bold. Maybe something IS in the works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dream Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 Sure sounds like you need to have a new area 8 Director Election! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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