Carry optics, are my expectations ridiculous?

[Twilk73]

My expectations as a shooter make me think I’ll be able to beat good young open GM level shooters with my concealed carry optics rig eventually at the local level. At the high tier matches I get that this is going to be way harder. But at the local level is this ridiculous?

 

Edit; I shoot IDPA from appendix and when I shoot USPSA I run the same setup. Pistol is appendix and two magazines directly to the left of the pistol, all concealed under a t-shirt. The idea was to use USPSA to get better at IDPA. But reaching master in IDPA proved underwhelming. So now instead I pretended in my head I’m still using USPSA for growth while trying to reach GM in the sport at the same time. In the process of breaking down my USPSA matches to see how to improve, it’s daunting that I’m constantly getting beat by people in open division. 

Edited June 16 by Twilk73

[shred]

Open shooters have the advantage of Major scoring, 28 round mags, a comp and a non-cycling dot.  Until you get better enough to offset those differences, it's gonna be tough.

 

Really really good CO shooters can beat Open GMs but it's not easy (eg: Max Michel in CO beat Max Leograndis in Open, who in turn beat JJ in CO at the Space City Challenge last weekend).

 

If your local GMs trend to the spray-and-pray hero-or-zero types, it might be easier.

 

[cferree]

Max was shooting Open Minor.  There's a good chance that be was using his Vudoo Priest that has been ported.

[shred]

I hadn't noticed that.  If he'd scored Major and all else the same he would have been very close to Max Michel. 

 

Area 1 had Hetherington in CO just over Eddins in Open Major.   Carrying on down the list to "normies", there's some CO M's above Open GMs, and vice-versa.  

 

Area 8 Eddins in Open Major just ahead of Sailer in CO.  Further down the M & GM Open and CO are somewhat mixed together.

 

[llamasabound]

Depending a lot on the match and the stages, Open Major runs a 7-15% advantage over CO minor. The comp, the capacity, the non reciprocating dot, and the ability to shoot 2 fast C on high risk targets makes up the difference. 

 

The best national talent in CO routinely beat Open GMs.

 

Your average CO GM finishes around your average Open M, provided both received their classifications relatively recently. 

Because the classification system is a zip tie (it only goes one way), it will depend a lot on who is there locally. 

[Twilk73]

You guys all said what I was thinking. Thanks for the confirmation because This will keep me pushing forward. I want to get good enough to get to GM, but I also want to be beating my local Open GM’s. Some of them are still young and good by my standards. I feel like that will put me at a level high enough to compete in the bigger competitions and do well. Small goals lead to bigger ones basically. 
 

I’m still mostly focused on IDPA but the talent pool is much bigger in USPSA. So the drive to get better is with USPSA for me right now. 

[ringram]

Paper GM's yeah, you can do it.

Proper GM's good luck. If you can beat them you will be a good solid top tier CO GM.

 

Good guys will draw well under 1 second from match holsters and shot to shot reloads close to 1 second at 7yds.

From concealment I'm guessing you will be behind that. Once up and running you should be fine. But I think you will always be a little off the pace due to reloads and draws from concealment. Might cost you 1-2sec per stage.

 

So you will have to be faster by that amount.. and of course accurate.

Still its a good goal and you will be a very good GM in CO if you can do it.

 

 

[rowdyb]

You're competing against people more so than divisions or classifications. What is accomplishable at one club might be easier or impossible at another. It's why someone using purely local experience to draw national conclusions is usually wrong.

 

It's the person you're beating, not their gun. And if their gun fails then you still beat the person because they failed to have a set up that worked.

 

I also remember 15 years ago thinking, "who is winning at idpa nats?" and realizing at the time it was all people who also had significant uspsa experience and success. Very few pure, idpa only shooters, were winning anything big. So I thought I would cross train uspsa to improve at idpa. I realized this was kinda silly (the equipment changes today I think reduce some of that, as well as fault lines in idpa) and that I'd rather just focus on uspsa where the talent pool is indeed deeper and just everything is/was larger.

Edited June 18 by rowdyb

[IHAVEGAS]

When production was still 10 rounds and men were men, Alex Gutt used to cherry pick at nearby level 2 matches. He beat a lot of good open shooters, it can be done with equipment disadvantages. 

[Twilk73]

9 hours ago, rowdyb said:

You're competing against people more so than divisions or classifications. What is accomplishable at one club might be easier or impossible at another. It's why someone using purely local experience to draw national conclusions is usually wrong.

 

It's the person you're beating, not their gun. And if their gun fails then you still beat the person because they failed to have a set up that worked.

 

I also remember 15 years ago thinking, "who is winning at idpa nats?" and realizing at the time it was all people who also had significant uspsa experience and success. Very few pure, idpa only shooters, were winning anything big. So I thought I would cross train uspsa to improve at idpa. I realized this was kinda silly (the equipment changes today I think reduce some of that, as well as fault lines in idpa) and that I'd rather just focus on uspsa where the talent pool is indeed deeper and just everything is/was larger.

I fully understand this and I am comparing how the local GM’s rank at nationals or just larger matches and whether I consider them to be a worth comparison. It’s not a true gauge because there are plenty of unknown variables but it lets me know who to watch, squad with and compare to. It gives me smaller goals to reach to help me get to that next level. 

[-JCN-]

@Twilk73  I would love to see this play out in a Range Diary training journal where you can document your progress and learning for others to benefit from. 

 

https://forums.brianenos.com/forum/155-range-diary/

 

If it motivates you, it's good.

.

Edited June 19 by -JCN-

[waktasz]

I started shooting crotch carry optics a few weeks ago too. It's definitely a disadvantage, but not quite as bad as I thought. The draw isn't (well, shouldn't be) much worse than my CO rig holster but I'm not fully dialed in yet. My reloads are trash though, which doesn't hurt TOOOO much on field courses but does on classifiers. 

 

Even when shooting my real CO rig, if a good Open GM is there I know I'm not winning. Open Major is a giant advantage. I'm a CO GM

[Twilk73]

On 6/19/2024 at 7:10 AM, -JCN- said:

@Twilk73  I would love to see this play out in a Range Diary training journal where you can document your progress and learning for others to benefit from. 

 

https://forums.brianenos.com/forum/155-range-diary/

 

If it motivates you, it's good.

.

I have videos of myself for learning purposes mostly to see if I’m doing things right. But Id never have the time to document this stuff in a digital diary. Maybe when I get comfortable in my skill and feel like I have to invest less in practice. But I have three young boys so my free time gets chewed up. I agree it would be interesting. I followed the g26 guy and even thought his progress was inspiring. 

Edited June 21 by Twilk73

[Twilk73]

On 6/19/2024 at 12:26 PM, waktasz said:

I started shooting crotch carry optics a few weeks ago too. It's definitely a disadvantage, but not quite as bad as I thought. The draw isn't (well, shouldn't be) much worse than my CO rig holster but I'm not fully dialed in yet. My reloads are trash though, which doesn't hurt TOOOO much on field courses but does on classifiers. 

 

Even when shooting my real CO rig, if a good Open GM is there I know I'm not winning. Open Major is a giant advantage. I'm a CO GM

Just an idea of what my goals are currently. Like times I want to hit consistently without feeling like I’m trying to push to my max speed. 
 

Draw, 1.2 seconds. This is slow compared to open shooters but this is a time I can achieve consistently with a good grip. Can I go faster? Yeah but if the grip is off then other things are slower. 
 

Reloads, 1.6 seconds when standing still. This is the only way I measure reloads in a time fashion. Edit this includes a trigger press. So I react to the beep with a shot and then reload and I am on target in 1.6 seconds, all on a closed chamber no slide manipulation. 
 

Splits .2 seconds, 10 yards and in. I haven’t considered 25 yards but I know what my average is. I also haven’t considered my splits while moving. I mostly focus on moving as fast as I can while shooting accurately and wondering if ultimately it slows me down. 

 

These are the numbers I use to grade myself on drills or if i want to grade a stage. I can hit these numbers consistently in practice warned up. 
 

So in dry practice I’m working to improve those times because in reality all these numbers are slow compared to guys running race gear and at peak performance. 

 

So theoretically I shouldn’t be able to keep up with open GM’s. I try to make that time up with superior movement and stage planning. Leave areas faster, run faster, be ready to shoot as soon as I see the target, don’t fear the far targets and don’t stop moving if possible. My raw time was 12 seconds slower than the open GM last week. He had the fastest raw time. He had one stage where he didn’t have to reload and I did. There were 7 stages total and I am running a concealed rig. Not bad, but not good enough either, yet! I see raw times as another valued measuring block. You’re scored on speed and accuracy. 

Edited June 21 by Twilk73

[waktasz]

What match are you shooting? I probably know you. Moved away from that area 3 years ago, live in Florida now

[llamasabound]

12 minutes ago, waktasz said:

What match are you shooting? I probably know you. Moved away from that area 3 years ago, live in Florida now

Looks like West Shore / WSPS

[Twilk73]

On 6/19/2024 at 9:50 PM, waktasz said:

What match are you shooting? I probably know you. Moved away from that area 3 years ago, live in Florida now

Yeah WSPS. I only started shooting matches two years ago. I might venture over to the York matches for USPSA. I shot higher tier IDPA matches but I’ve only done local matches for USPSA. 

Edited June 21 by Twilk73

[waktasz]

Cool. I used to shoot those too. Now I only shoot the Florida State IDPA match.

[Twilk73]

17 hours ago, waktasz said:

Cool. I used to shoot those too. Now I only shoot the Florida State IDPA match.

My expectations might be coming from watching guys like Matt H whoop up on open guys. I get it, I shouldn’t theoretically be able to do it but I'm going to try and get good enough to do it at a local level. 
 

I was thinking about it negatively prior to starting this thread. Like why can’t I beat these guys. But this thread has helped give me perspective. Obviously I have a lot of development yet and that’s part of it. I know I’m not shooting with the best but I believe I have some pretty good shooters around me which is great for my own personal development and drive. 

[bluedevil008]

The top minor shooters are shooting so few Charlies that it mitigates the difference between Major/Minor.  Most stages are not a static draw first shot, so usually the .4ish difference between race holster and concealment is not that much of a factor. Same goes for reloads, they're almost always done between positions and the time added to your total time is negligible.  Accuracy, splits at distance, transitions, and efficiency in and out of positions is where 95% of your time improvement comes from. 

 

If you're focused on the first couple of things, you're missing the most important things that will allow you to beat any shooter, regardless of what gun is in their hands.

[davidb72]

Tom,

You have come a long way in a short amount of time and have become a very good shooter. I don't think you can expect to beat guys like Chris shooting CO. His path was very similar to yours - he showed up, got hooked, and then worked his ass off through dry fire and training to get very good. He consistently finishes well at sectional and area matches - even winning some.

I think at this point you need to start shooting at other clubs in our area - New Holland, Ontelaunee, Thurmont, Lower Prov, and York to see some new things and get some more experience. See if you can squad with those guys and pick their brains.

We have Tim Herron coming to the club soon - are you signed up? I would take a class with Tim or look for a Steve Anderson class nearby. That was the catalyst that really seemed to push Chris over the top of the plateau he was at. He really committed himself to the Steve Anderson method and hasn't slowed down since.

Shooting CO (minor) against an equally talented competitor shooting Open (major) - that always going to be fighting at a disadvantage. Then throw in trying to shoot from appendix.... You are putting yourself at an unnecessary disadvantage. 

[Neex]

Local matches with your concealed carry optics setup can be a real challenge against those open division shooters, especially starting out. Just keep your focus on getting better and breaking down those matches.

 

[Wrathen]

I’m a B class in Single Stack and I have beaten B class Open shooters. It depends on the shooter and the stage design and how well you shoot. All things being equal it’s an uphill battle

[shred]

At the root It basically simple-- you either need to shoot the same times as they do with less than half as many C's and D's or shoot a whole lot faster.

 

Neither is particularly easy, but the first is generally easier than the second, especially as the classifications go up and there's less wasted movement elsewhere.

 

 

 

 

 

[MikeBurgess]

We had a very good local shooter a few years back that was dedicated to using and improving his every day carry gear and skills. He was able to make Master in Limited shooting Minor from concealed appendix carry, we all believed that he would have made GM reasonably easily if he had shot major with exposed mag pouches. That said for a few years he was the local heat in Limited and pushed some of the M class open shooters, but at L2+ matches his finishes in Limited suffered due to the scoring advantage of Major and a deeper pool of talent.