Can't start a shooter unloaded, told ya lol

[RJH]

We've had this discussion a time or two, and part of the ready condition in a starting position is how the gun is loaded. I've said that if it was a loaded start, the competitor wouldn't meet the handgun ready condition if his gun wasn't loaded and shouldn't be started. Others thought they should be. Turns out I was right LOL. This article mostly discusses starting a competitor in the wrong starting position, but that last sentence keys in on handgun ready condition. If the start calls for a loaded handgun, you at least have to have a gun with some ammo in it somewhere or else it's not loaded and the competitor shouldn't be started. Just like if it calls for an unloaded start you can't start a competitor with a loaded gun. 

 

 

Note that a loaded gun does not mean a round in the chamber, just actual ammunition in the gun. Discuss/argue if you like

 

 

https://nroi.org/ro-best-practices/enforcing-the-start-position/

Edited April 20 by RJH

[driver8M3]

An older NROI blog post (from 2020) said the opposite. According the DNROI, the instructors have changed their thinking on this situation and the most recent article that you referenced is now their current guidance.

Loaded can mean:

1. empty chamber, loaded magazine inserted

2. chamber loaded, no magazine inserted

3. chamber loaded, loaded magazine inserted

[perttime]

Nothing in USPSA Rules about it?

 

IPSC Rules have:

8.1 Handgun Ready Conditions
The ready condition for handguns will normally be as stated below. However, in the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the written stage briefing, whether inadvertently or intentionally, the Range Officer must not take any action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the handgun.

....

....

Edited April 20 by perttime

[RJH]

5 minutes ago, perttime said:

Nothing in USPSA Rules about it?

 

IPSC Rules have:

8.1 Handgun Ready Conditions
The ready condition for handguns will normally be as stated below. However, in the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the written stage briefing, whether inadvertently or intentionally, the Range Officer must not take any action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the handgun.

....

....

 

 

I think USPSA is pretty much verbatim on that. But that still would be considered a loaded handgun, assuming a loaded mag was in the gun. So it would meet the ready condition of a loaded handgun. A completely empty handgun (no ammo in mag, no ammo in chamber) does not meet the ready condition of a loaded handgun and so the shooter should not be started if the ready condition is loaded. It's all in the rule book, glad to see nroi rule correctly on this one

[perttime]

Our upcoming local Level 2 IPSC match has a "magazine inserted, empty chamber" start. I'm betting that some competitors will put a round in the chamber, the first time.

[RJH]

7 hours ago, perttime said:

Our upcoming local Level 2 IPSC match has a "magazine inserted, empty chamber" start. I'm betting that some competitors will put a round in the chamber, the first time.

 

 

For sure. We had that happen a few times at a local the other day. Not a big deal though, just get them situated correctly before you start them. 

[broadside72]

I don't understand the issue, even a copy of the 2008 USPSA rules has the same 8.1 opening paragraph and definition of "loaded firearm" in the glossary as it does now. 

[RJH]

1 hour ago, broadside72 said:

I don't understand the issue, even a copy of the 2008 USPSA rules has the same 8.1 opening paragraph and definition of "loaded firearm" in the glossary as it does now. 

 

Many people were of the opinion that if it was a loaded start and the competitor didn't load their gun that they should be started anyway. This was incorrect in 2008 too, but it was how the rule was misapplied then as well

[broadside72]

49 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Many people were of the opinion that if it was a loaded start and the competitor didn't load their gun that they should be started anyway. This was incorrect in 2008 too, but it was how the rule was misapplied then as well

 

Those are the folks that need to RTFM then, its covered in two places. 

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, broadside72 said:

 

Those are the folks that need to RTFM then, its covered in two places. 

USPSA Competition Rules

February

20

2

4

41

CHAPTER 8

–

The

Course of Fire

8.1

Firearm Ready Conditions

The ready condition for firearms will normally be as stated below.

However, in the

event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the

Written Stage

Briefing

, whether inadvertently or

intentionally, the Range Officer must not take any

action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling

[broadside72]

10 minutes ago, Sarge said:

USPSA Competition Rules

February

20

2

4

41

CHAPTER 8

–

The

Course of Fire

8.1

Firearm Ready Conditions

The ready condition for firearms will normally be as stated below.

However, in the

event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the

Written Stage

Briefing

, whether inadvertently or

intentionally, the Range Officer must not take any

action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling

 

Not sure what you are trying to say.

 

If the ready condition is unloaded, then nothing chambered and no ammo in it in the mag well. Pretty easy on that one. If ready condition is loaded then there is a definition of loaded firearm in the glossary and 8.1 says its on the shooter to chamber a round. If no mag is in the gun with a loaded ready condition, then no start. Any ammo in the gun (mag well or cylinder or chamber, then it's loaded and good to start. 

[motosapiens]

5 hours ago, RJH said:

 

Many people were of the opinion that if it was a loaded start and the competitor didn't load their gun that they should be started anyway. This was incorrect in 2008 too, but it was how the rule was misapplied then as well

meh. “correct” is whatever troy or jody say it is. either alot of people misunderstood what they were saying before, or they are saying something slightly different now. i don’t care too much either way, but im happy to remind people that its a loaded start if they forget.

[RJH]

Just now, motosapiens said:

meh. “correct” is whatever troy or jody say it is. either alot of people misunderstood what they were saying before, or they are saying something slightly different now. i don’t care too much either way, but im happy to remind people that its a loaded start if they forget.

 

 

My version of correct is just what the rule book says, not really what Troy or Jody say. The only reason their opinion matters is so that we're all doing the same thing. That's whether it's all the same correct thing, or the same incorrect thing LOL

[motosapiens]

3 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

My version of correct is just what the rule book says, not really what Troy or Jody say. The only reason their opinion matters is so that we're all doing the same thing. That's whether it's all the same correct thing, or the same incorrect thing LOL

you are free to believe that you know what the rulebook says, but thats just like your interpretation, man…

 

it is pretty obvious that intelligent people can read the same words and come to different conclusions about what they mean. thats why we have a supreme court, and dnroi, and arbitration. there are a lot of gray areas.

 

[RJH]

8 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

you are free to believe that you know what the rulebook says, but thats just like your interpretation, man…

 

it is pretty obvious that intelligent people can read the same words and come to different conclusions about what they mean. thats why we have a supreme court, and dnroi, and arbitration. there are a lot of gray areas.

 

 

No gray area in this instance though

[motosapiens]

5 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

No gray area in this instance though

of course you believe that, which doesn’t bother me.

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

of course you believe that, which doesn’t bother me.

 

Oh it's not what I believe, it's just what the rule book says. The only people who don't agree are the ones who have poor reading comprehension combined with "this is the way we always did it" frame of mind. 

 

And maybe poor reading comprehension is a little harsh. Maybe confirmation bias combined with "this is the way we always did it" leads them to the wrong answers

[Sarge]

5 hours ago, broadside72 said:

 

Not sure what you are trying to say.

 

If the ready condition is unloaded, then nothing chambered and no ammo in it in the mag well. Pretty easy on that one. If ready condition is loaded then there is a definition of loaded firearm in the glossary and 8.1 says its on the shooter to chamber a round. If no mag is in the gun with a loaded ready condition, then no start. Any ammo in the gun (mag well or cylinder or chamber, then it's loaded and good to start. 

I’m trying to say that’s where most of the confusion comes from.

[IVC]

Not seeing the controversy, it's clear and the OP is correct - cannot start loaded when unloaded is required and vice versa. 
 

But it's also true that local clubs at level 1 will not always go by all the rules, including this one. The "reshoot arguments" are often not worth it. This is just the reality on the ground. 

[Fireant]

So, freestyle is now dead along with the power part of DVC?  I guess it’s a kinder, gentler, shooting game now.  

[RJH]

3 hours ago, Fireant said:

So, freestyle is now dead along with the power part of DVC?  I guess it’s a kinder, gentler, shooting game now.  

 

 

I don't think 8.3.1 is a new thing 

 

And nothing is stopping you from shooting major

Edited April 26 by RJH

[Blackstone45]

10 hours ago, Fireant said:

So, freestyle is now dead along with the power part of DVC?  I guess it’s a kinder, gentler, shooting game now.  

Bit of a stretch to conclude that freestyle is dead

[shred]

IPSC (where they still shoot a manly 170PF in Standard) has always believed that "freestyle starts after the beep".  

 

USPSA allows more latitude.

 

[rowdyb]

On 4/22/2024 at 6:22 PM, motosapiens said:

but thats just like your interpretation, man…

Please please please let this be said in The Dude's voice. Now I want to rewatch big lebowski