S&W 686 - Slight hammer delay in double action. Ideas?

[10mmdave]

You did mention you smoothed things up in an earlier post, your pics don't show anything

"over smoothed" but now it sounds like you have a sear that's on the edge of being too

short.

 

Do you have another sear to swap out from another gun ?

Edited February 21 by 10mmdave
sepllng

[bigdog02]

4 hours ago, 10mmdave said:

You did mention you smoothed things up in an earlier post, your pics don't show anything

"over smoothed" but now it sounds like you have a sear that's on the edge of being too

short.

 

Do you have another sear to swap out from another gun ?

One thing I have learned in the couple seasons shooting SW revolvers:  spare parts are good.  I have several spare hammers, sears, sear springs.  Going to test with more ammo and see how it goes now that the shim is out.  Sear replacement is short list of next items to change out.

 

[Farmer]

The heat generated by you shooting so fast is causing the hammer to swell and that shim makes it too tight. 
That sounds better than shooter error. 

[MWP]

3 hours ago, bigdog02 said:

One thing I have learned in the couple seasons shooting SW revolvers:  spare parts are good.  I have several spare hammers, sears, sear springs.  Going to test with more ammo and see how it goes now that the shim is out.  Sear replacement is short list of next items to change out.

 

Ok- serious question. How are you wearing these parts out?

 

I must be doing something wrong. Other than swapping a good firing pin out for a good firing pin, I barely clean the guns.

Once a gun falling off a table on concrete like sand once resulting in a broken trigger stud, and some cylinders that saw some angry ammo, I’m not sure I’ve ever replaced anything. I’ve never used a shim, replaced a spring or even considered owning a spare sear. 
 

I had to replace a 686 cylinder a decade ago, but then I found out just this last winter it wasn’t me- the person I loaned it to all those years ago wore out a 625 cylinder in a week of dryfire. 

[ysrracer]

2 minutes ago, MWP said:

Ok- serious question. How are you wearing these parts out?

 

I must be doing something wrong. Other than swapping a good firing pin out for a good firing pin, I barely clean the guns.

 

 

You're just not that fast on the trigger

[ysrracer]

Ok, serious reply. Every tractor mechanic with a rat-tail file thinks they're a "gunsmith". Most of them don't know what they're doing.

 

No offense to any actual tractor mechanics

[bigdog02]

5 minutes ago, MWP said:

Ok- serious question. How are you wearing these parts out?

 

I must be doing something wrong. Other than swapping a good firing pin out for a good firing pin, I barely clean the guns.

Once a gun falling off a table on concrete like sand once resulting in a broken trigger stud, and some cylinders that saw some angry ammo, I’m not sure I’ve ever replaced anything. I’ve never used a shim, replaced a spring or even considered owning a spare sear. 
 

I had to replace a 686 cylinder a decade ago, but then I found out just this last winter it wasn’t me- the person I loaned it to all those years ago wore out a 625 cylinder in a week of dryfire. 

 

I have amazingly bad luck - so pure paranoia.
I dryfire a couple hundred a night on normal nights and prior to bigger matches, much more.
I locked up a 625 a standstill within 50 rounds of coming back from SW after a master revolver package.
Same 625 the internal lock was catching and locking the gun up intermittently.
Original GP100 I started shooting rev competition with I locked up to dead after I dropped a speedloader on a stage and picked it up and put it in the gun (water/dirt/unknown got under the extractor/chambers) and it ceased to function in less than 6 rounds.
This same SSR brand new, my front sight system exploded and had issues with ammo I ran through it (turned out to be a spring issue) but also the hammer was hitting the frame on the frame side of the hammer - hence the shims.

Brand new 617 I got a little bit ago has a tremendous heavy hard wall after the cylinder lock up but I am just going to live with it because I am tired of having to pop side plates off after every other visit to the range.  

In all honesty, I have spare hammers and sears because I had planned to try to bob some hammers to experiment but at this point I am afraid to breathe near any of my SW revolvers for fear of inciting more violence against my shooting happiness.

[MWP]

1 minute ago, bigdog02 said:

 

I have amazingly bad luck - so pure paranoia.
I dryfire a couple hundred a night on normal nights and prior to bigger matches, much more.
I locked up a 625 a standstill within 50 rounds of coming back from SW after a master revolver package.
Same 625 the internal lock was catching and locking the gun up intermittently.
Original GP100 I started shooting rev competition with I locked up to dead after I dropped a speedloader on a stage and picked it up and put it in the gun (water/dirt/unknown got under the extractor/chambers) and it ceased to function in less than 6 rounds.
This same SSR brand new, my front sight system exploded and had issues with ammo I ran through it (turned out to be a spring issue) but also the hammer was hitting the frame on the frame side of the hammer - hence the shims.

Brand new 617 I got a little bit ago has a tremendous heavy hard wall after the cylinder lock up but I am just going to live with it because I am tired of having to pop side plates off after every other visit to the range.  

In all honesty, I have spare hammers and sears because I had planned to try to bob some hammers to experiment but at this point I am afraid to breathe near any of my SW revolvers for fear of inciting more violence against my shooting happiness.

I’ve done a little dry fire myself. And owned a few guns. They all need a little

love coming from the factory that’s for sure. But after you get a few things cleaned up, they just seem to run, and rarely have any issue from what I’ve seen.

[MWP]

30 minutes ago, ysrracer said:

 

You're just not that fast on the trigger

I mean that’s a possibility. I think it’s extremely detrimental to the cylinder  and the stop to pull the trigger the way some people do. And let’s not even talk about the abuse some of those weak hand reloaders do to those poor cylinders…

[gargoil66]

10 hours ago, bigdog02 said:

 

I have amazingly bad luck - so pure paranoia.
I dryfire a couple hundred a night on normal nights and prior to bigger matches, much more.
I locked up a 625 a standstill within 50 rounds of coming back from SW after a master revolver package.
Same 625 the internal lock was catching and locking the gun up intermittently.
Original GP100 I started shooting rev competition with I locked up to dead after I dropped a speedloader on a stage and picked it up and put it in the gun (water/dirt/unknown got under the extractor/chambers) and it ceased to function in less than 6 rounds.
This same SSR brand new, my front sight system exploded and had issues with ammo I ran through it (turned out to be a spring issue) but also the hammer was hitting the frame on the frame side of the hammer - hence the shims.

Brand new 617 I got a little bit ago has a tremendous heavy hard wall after the cylinder lock up but I am just going to live with it because I am tired of having to pop side plates off after every other visit to the range.  

In all honesty, I have spare hammers and sears because I had planned to try to bob some hammers to experiment but at this point I am afraid to breathe near any of my SW revolvers for fear of inciting more violence against my shooting happiness.

Yo B.D.

 

How can a front sight 'explode'?

 

GG

[bigdog02]

3 hours ago, gargoil66 said:

Yo B.D.

 

How can a front sight 'explode'?

 

GG

 

Bought the SSR brand new from a dealer on GB.  Came to my local FFL - I checked the (what I thought) important stuff like timing, the extractor star, barrel straightness before I took posession of it.  Looked great.

It has the DX front sight, so I wanted to change the red ramp to a fiber. 

I pulled down on the sight and it sort of popped out like it was supposed to but was stuck.  I tapped it with my hand and when it let go......the detent and spring yeeted out into the room and there was a massive puff of yellow/white powder that came out onto the flood and was in the channel that sight was sitting in.

The little pin was nowhere to be found, the detent and spring were gone.  Never did find the pin and assume it was never there to start with and the sight was cemented or glued somewhere before it got to me.  The detent and spring when I found them were coated in this white/yellow crusty dried glue/cement material.
The raised sight part of the barrel appears to have taken a hard hit at some point and bent it, the sight was glued in place - assuming since the pin was gone.
New pin, cleaned up detent and spring and it was back together fine with an SDM fiber - but you can see the damage that was on the gun.

[pskys2]

15 hours ago, MWP said:

I mean that’s a possibility. I think it’s extremely detrimental to the cylinder  and the stop to pull the trigger the way some people do. And let’s not even talk about the abuse some of those weak hand reloaders do to those poor cylinders…

The more we pull off the side plate the more things can go wrong.  Once my trigger is set and smoothed out I now try to just add a bit of oil through the hammer window.

So when you pull your trigger, do you try to stroke it smoothly or slam it back as fast as you can?

[MWP]

On 2/22/2024 at 10:35 AM, pskys2 said:

The more we pull off the side plate the more things can go wrong.  Once my trigger is set and smoothed out I now try to just add a bit of oil through the hammer window.

So when you pull your trigger, do you try to stroke it smoothly or slam it back as fast as you can?

I’m on the trigger smooth, kinda. It’s a mixture of get angry at it and keep it moving. Hard to explain. 

[Vic]

Made me laugh on that comment MWP, with the "hard to explain", and your talking to an audience of experienced revolver shooters. I have the damnedest time explaining this principle to the new shooters I take out and let them try my revolver. my usual speech is don't pull part way and stop, don't pull to slow and don't yank it. Be smooth, which can be accomplished at any speed, you can pull slowly, but smooth, medium, but smooth or fast, but smooth.

  Unfortunately, Im a piss poor instructor, I give the speech, then watch a trigger pull that takes 5 to 10 seconds and they are shaking like a dog s#!ttin a peach pit by the time the hammer falls........your right, it's hard to explain. 

[MWP]

17 minutes ago, Vic said:

Made me laugh on that comment MWP, with the "hard to explain", and your talking to an audience of experienced revolver shooters. I have the damnedest time explaining this principle to the new shooters I take out and let them try my revolver. my usual speech is don't pull part way and stop, don't pull to slow and don't yank it. Be smooth, which can be accomplished at any speed, you can pull slowly, but smooth, medium, but smooth or fast, but smooth.

  Unfortunately, Im a piss poor instructor, I give the speech, then watch a trigger pull that takes 5 to 10 seconds and they are shaking like a dog s#!ttin a peach pit by the time the hammer falls........your right, it's hard to explain. 

Teaching is one of the ways to learn how much you don’t know. At least for me it has been. 
 

I think there’s several different techniques to a fast trigger pull. Most will get you to a sub 20 average, then there’s a different technique that can take you to about a 17 average, then it’s an entirely different one to go rip 13s and 14s and 15s and 16s in succession- a 14.5ish average. 
 

But in all those situations my finger doesn’t come off the trigger with a revolver. Some portion of that could have to do with using a 15-16lb return spring though. 

[Squirrel45]

I think the weight of the return spring plays a significant roll in able to double tap. I run an 11 lb one on my SC setups so split follow ups are not as critical for me. However in the little bit I know I can tell the difference, the 11lb makes the trigger sluggish for sure. I feel as my experience grows I will up the return on those mentioned above as well. But its sure nice having  that five and half pound pull.    

[MWP]

5 hours ago, Squirrel45 said:

I think the weight of the return spring plays a significant roll in able to double tap. I run an 11 lb one on my SC setups so split follow ups are not as critical for me. However in the little bit I know I can tell the difference, the 11lb makes the trigger sluggish for sure. I feel as my experience grows I will up the return on those mentioned above as well. But it’s sure nice having  that five and half pound pull.    

A fast return speed can be had with an 11lb rebound, as long as your mainspring is super light too. 
 

I have a 686 that I’ve used to have a hard look at the 5 shot record that has an 11lb rebound. That guns capable of going a lot faster than I can- down into single digits, but the mainspring is crazy light too. Total weight is 4ish right now. Not something I’d want for a match. 

[ysrracer]

Yep, agreed. The reason I'm not winning all these Revo matches is the trigger return speed / splits

[Squirrel45]

It probably would help if i could feel my fingers too 

[Dr. Phil]

I have found the on some of my guns a 5 1/2 lb trigger seems to induce short stroking. My TRR8 was always like that and my 929 as well. Guess I am one of those ride the trigger guys. I am much more comfortable at about 6 1/2. That pound less never seemed to win anything much for me anyway. 

Edited February 24 by Dr. Phil

[bigdog02]

Small update
Went to the range - took 5 different varieties of ammo, from hot 158gr factory to my pmc 132, federal 130s.
I did everything from 6 round dumps, 1 reload 1, controlled pairs, etc.
Not a single light primer.  No delayed hammer falls at all.
Very well might have been that shim binding the hammer once it became cupped.
I seem to be having issues with my trigger pull contributing all this as well.  Stock main spring and a 15lb rebound, I need to be more conscious of my trigger pull.

All great input from everyone - hopefully all solved.

[pskys2]

8 hours ago, Squirrel45 said:

I think the weight of the return spring plays a significant roll in able to double tap. I run an 11 lb one on my SC setups so split follow ups are not as critical for me. However in the little bit I know I can tell the difference, the 11lb makes the trigger sluggish for sure. I feel as my experience grows I will up the return on those mentioned above as well. But its sure nice having  that five and half pound pull.    

It's all a balancing act between the mainspring and rebound spring.

[ysrracer]

41 minutes ago, bigdog02 said:

Small update
Went to the range - took 5 different varieties of ammo, from hot 158gr factory to my pmc 132, federal 130s.
I did everything from 6 round dumps, 1 reload 1, controlled pairs, etc.
Not a single light primer.  No delayed hammer falls at all.
Very well might have been that shim binding the hammer once it became cupped.
I seem to be having issues with my trigger pull contributing all this as well.  Stock main spring and a 15lb rebound, I need to be more conscious of my trigger pull.

All great input from everyone - hopefully all solved.

 

I've found that range trips and shooting a match are two vastly different things, with vastly different outcomes.

 

Ymmv

[Carmoney]

On 2/21/2024 at 8:46 PM, MWP said:

I’ve done a little dry fire myself. And owned a few guns. They all need a little

love coming from the factory that’s for sure. But after you get a few things cleaned up, they just seem to run, and rarely have any issue from what I’ve seen.

 

I have been preaching on this forum for 15 years trying to persuade wheelgunners that once you have things set up to your liking, you only take off the sideplate when there is a problem.  And problems are pretty rare.  

[Carmoney]

On 2/21/2024 at 8:48 PM, MWP said:

I mean that’s a possibility. I think it’s extremely detrimental to the cylinder  and the stop to pull the trigger the way some people do. And let’s not even talk about the abuse some of those weak hand reloaders do to those poor cylinders…

 

Remember all the cylinder peening issues that dominated the conversation here for several years?  Everybody wanted to blame poor metallurgy from the factory, but the truth is that most of those problems were caused by abusive handling.  (And for the record, a practiced shooter can quickly reload with the weak hand without slapping the cylinder closed every freaking time.)

Edited March 3 by Carmoney