bigdog02 Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 Hey guys, I am throwing myself at the mercy of the S&W revolver powers that be. At the last 2 matches I have had a strange issue pop up that has me - and several other revolver shooters scratching our heads a little bit Used this same gun last year with the same exact ammo - no issues. This year across 2 different types of ammo (Federal 130 and PMC 132) I have been getting a weird delay with my hammer falling in double action. The gun internals are stock aside from a couple hammer shims and a 15lb rebound spring. Happened with a power custom firing pin and stock .4955 firing pin. Internals were polished with 1000 grit and extremely light stoning. Same gun ran lights out last year. Only issue since then was my ejector rod loosened up and I tightened it again, changed nothing else. At a match today I managed to catch it on video. There is an audible click on the video, hammer is back and there is a split second delay before it falls. More than enough time for me to pull the shot completely off target. Where should I be looking for a potential culprit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 humm said its stock but then list mods and aftermarket parts.... LOL.. I am thinking maybe an angle got buggered up,, Or as is sometimes the case messing with MIM parts, you get past the surface hardening and part buggers itself up with a bit of wear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Sahlberg Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 When was the gun mfg? Older guns never had issues. Newer guns as mentioned above use MIM parts (metal injection molding or powdered metal) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdog02 Posted February 19 Author Share Posted February 19 Sadly it is a newer (new in early 2023) 686 SSR so all MIM. I will pull the shims and get the magnifier out to get a good look at double action surfaces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gargoil66 Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 10 hours ago, bigdog02 said: Hey guys, I am throwing myself at the mercy of the S&W revolver powers that be. At the last 2 matches I have had a strange issue pop up that has me - and several other revolver shooters scratching our heads a little bit Used this same gun last year with the same exact ammo - no issues. This year across 2 different types of ammo (Federal 130 and PMC 132) I have been getting a weird delay with my hammer falling in double action. The gun internals are stock aside from a couple hammer shims and a 15lb rebound spring. Happened with a power custom firing pin and stock .4955 firing pin. Internals were polished with 1000 grit and extremely light stoning. Same gun ran lights out last year. Only issue since then was my ejector rod loosened up and I tightened it again, changed nothing else. At a match today I managed to catch it on video. There is an audible click on the video, hammer is back and there is a split second delay before it falls. More than enough time for me to pull the shot completely off target. Where should I be looking for a potential culprit? Happened with a Power Custom and a issued firing pin. Probably not the firing pin Only other two things you added were shims and a fifteen pound rebound spring. Apparently it was working with the shims and rebound spring? Remove grips, loosen strain screw, remove side plate. Do a visual inspection for anything that is chipped or broken. Clean and lube. Put it back together and see if it works. If it is doing the same thing, remove the shims and try. If it isn't working still, put the original rebound spring back in and try. If not working still, you need to consult a good revolversmith. GG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toolguy Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 It sounds like a trigger stop that's a hair too long. Do you have any kind of trigger stop on the gun? Maybe inside the rebound slide? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ysrracer Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 12 hours ago, bigdog02 said: Where should I be looking for a potential culprit? Must resist the urge... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdog02 Posted February 19 Author Share Posted February 19 1 hour ago, Toolguy said: It sounds like a trigger stop that's a hair too long. Do you have any kind of trigger stop on the gun? Maybe inside the rebound slide? This was a thought I had too! No trigger stops here at all - the rod has been removed from the rebound slide and there is not one installed on the trigger itself. Yes the gun ran perfectly with the shims and power custom firing pin/stock firing pin for a bunch of matches last year, several majors, etc. At the end of the season I noticed my ejector rod was loosening so I got the brownells tool and some blue loctite and tightened it up. Other than that - all I did was pop the side plate off, do a deep clean of it after the season and put it up until indoor IDPA started up again. Pulled it apart. I had 1 shim on each side of the hammer to help center it. The shim on the outside of the hammer (cover plate side) is slightly cupped. Nothing else jumping out at me. Here is the shortened video of the delay. First shot on the target array I am coming into after the reload. Turn on your sound and set it to .5 speed - you will hear a click and the hammer does not fall immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 Do any of the studs have a wiggle to them with side plate off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toolguy Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 That was going to be my next guess. A broken hammer or trigger stud will make the action act weird. Also, check the storage lock and make sure the springs aren't out of place or damaged. If they are, it could allow the locking lever to rise up and catch on the hammer. The broken stud theory is the more likely to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdog02 Posted February 19 Author Share Posted February 19 (edited) Trigger, hammer, and rebound slide studs are all nice and solid - no movement at all. After issues with the storage lock on my 625 catching the hammer early on when I started with revolvers, the storage lock was removed from this almost instantly when I got it. Only thing that looked off was the outward side shim on the hammer was cupped - not totally flat. Attached are a couple zoomed in pics of double action parts. No burrs or catches that I can see - just smoothed/mirrored spots. Edited February 19 by bigdog02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10mmdave Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 Watching the video at .5 and .25 speed, the hammer looks to go forward like the other 5 shots, wouldn't this be a hang fire situation ?? Are you running new reloaded ammo that has had the brass cleaned differently ? I guess the real question is what ammo are you running ? Factory or reloads ? Definitely an odd thing, good luck with your search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdog02 Posted February 19 Author Share Posted February 19 2 minutes ago, 10mmdave said: Watching the video at .5 and .25 speed, the hammer looks to go forward like the other 5 shots, wouldn't this be a hang fire situation ?? Are you running new reloaded ammo that has had the brass cleaned differently ? I guess the real question is what ammo are you running ? Factory or reloads ? Definitely an odd thing, good luck with your search. I thought so at first too until the video. The click is audibly separate from the other shots in the video - it clicks - I have pulled the trigger back but the hammer does not fall immediately, then it goes down and you can see me flinch as I had started moving the gun off the target. I only use factory ammo. This happened with Federal 130grain at a match a couple weeks ago and then also at this match with PMC 132s - which is the "big" match ammo I have been using in this gun and have not had any issues with. I appreciate all the insight from you guys. You all have seen and done a lot more so it is helpful to know what to look for and check. I hope to get out this week with it - with both Federal and PMC factory ammo, factory firing pin installed, and the cupped shim removed to see if I can replicate it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ysrracer Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 Operator error, you're bumping the cylinder release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosshoss Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 14 hours ago, Joe4d said: humm said its stock but then list mods and aftermarket parts.... LOL.. I am thinking maybe an angle got buggered up,, Or as is sometimes the case messing with MIM parts, you get past the surface hardening and part buggers itself up with a bit of wear. 14 hours ago, Bill Sahlberg said: When was the gun mfg? Older guns never had issues. Newer guns as mentioned above use MIM parts (metal injection molding or powdered metal) Sorry but will have to say this is so far off that I thought I was on the S&W forum for a while. The old forged part guns are a pain to work on as the specs are all over the place and them never having issues is hilarious as they had just as many issues as the newer guns including canted barrel that were then pinned canted. MIM parts are heat treated to the same depth as the forged part guns and the parts are much more consistence and will last just as long as forged parts. S&W had some bad MIM when they first started using it but got the process figured out and now it if good to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ysrracer Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 3 hours ago, Bosshoss said: Sorry but will have to say this is so far off that I thought I was on the S&W forum for a while. The old forged part guns are a pain to work on as the specs are all over the place and them never having issues is hilarious as they had just as many issues as the newer guns including canted barrel that were then pinned canted. MIM parts are heat treated to the same depth as the forged part guns and the parts are much more consistence and will last just as long as forged parts. S&W had some bad MIM when they first started using it but got the process figured out and now it if good to go. Please don't bring logic, reason and experience to an internet discussion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrrhic3gun Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 (edited) Look to see if the sear is hitting the trigger as it flies by after the hammer drops from the trigger's secondary ledge ( or whatever you call the ledge that picks up the hammer at the hand off from the sear). Edited February 20 by pyrrhic3gun correction, hammer not trigger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gargoil66 Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 Above my pay grade now. I just did a 'trigger job' using the Miculek DVD. Followed his directions to the letter. I think he is correct when he says that all I did was give it five or so thousand rounds worth of wear. Is the pull better? Yes, much smoother but I put in a TK main and rebound spring. Eight pounds down to six. It was a good way to learn the workings of a revolver but the problem at hand on this thread with the hammer hesitating on a cylinder makes me think there is a problem with the ratchet but the funny thing about these situations is that it rarely is anything anyone thought up. My advice, call TK and 'axed' them. GG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 (edited) Does it have this hitch in dry fire, or only during live firing? Did you put empty cases in the chambers when you tightened the loose ejector rod? Never had to use loc tite on an ejector rod? Edited February 20 by pskys2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdog02 Posted February 20 Author Share Posted February 20 29 minutes ago, pskys2 said: Does it have this hitch in dry fire, or only during live firing? Did you put empty cases in the chambers when you tightened the loose ejector rod? Never had to use loc tite on an ejector rod? No hitch in the dryfire at all - first gentle click when I start pulling the trigger (unlocking cylinder), 3/4 through the pull is the second click (cylinder locking). That is with the cupped shim removed. Yup, used empty cases in all chambers. After it loosened up the second time, I put a drop of blue on the threads before it went back together using the brownell tool. Has not loosened since. I took the gun apart, put the cupped shim back in - with the cup facing into the hammer. Put the gun back together and there is a notable drag (slight but still noticeable) on the hammer when moving it around. I am really leaning into the shim got pinched at some point at the end of last season when I was cleaning the gun and now it is just enough to drag things a tiny bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosshoss Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 12 minutes ago, bigdog02 said: No hitch in the dryfire at all - first gentle click when I start pulling the trigger (unlocking cylinder), 3/4 through the pull is the second click (cylinder locking). That is with the cupped shim removed. Yup, used empty cases in all chambers. After it loosened up the second time, I put a drop of blue on the threads before it went back together using the brownell tool. Has not loosened since. I took the gun apart, put the cupped shim back in - with the cup facing into the hammer. Put the gun back together and there is a notable drag (slight but still noticeable) on the hammer when moving it around. I am really leaning into the shim got pinched at some point at the end of last season when I was cleaning the gun and now it is just enough to drag things a tiny bit. I rarely if ever use hammer shims on a MIM gun, they are not needed. Forged part guns are another story as I said before The specs are all over the place and they sometimes need shims to keep things in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10mmdave Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 10 hours ago, bigdog02 said: I thought so at first too until the video. The click is audibly separate from the other shots in the video - it clicks - I have pulled the trigger back but the hammer does not fall immediately, then it goes down and you can see me flinch as I had started moving the gun off the target. I only use factory ammo. This happened with Federal 130grain at a match a couple weeks ago and then also at this match with PMC 132s - which is the "big" match ammo I have been using in this gun and have not had any issues with. I appreciate all the insight from you guys. You all have seen and done a lot more so it is helpful to know what to look for and check. I hope to get out this week with it - with both Federal and PMC factory ammo, factory firing pin installed, and the cupped shim removed to see if I can replicate it again. Good luck Big Dog, I'm sure we will all want to know what you find so please keep posting. (and sorry I re-asked about the ammo, I should have re-read your orig post) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 15 hours ago, bigdog02 said: No hitch in the dryfire at all - first gentle click when I start pulling the trigger (unlocking cylinder), 3/4 through the pull is the second click (cylinder locking). That is with the cupped shim removed. Yup, used empty cases in all chambers. After it loosened up the second time, I put a drop of blue on the threads before it went back together using the brownell tool. Has not loosened since. I took the gun apart, put the cupped shim back in - with the cup facing into the hammer. Put the gun back together and there is a notable drag (slight but still noticeable) on the hammer when moving it around. I am really leaning into the shim got pinched at some point at the end of last season when I was cleaning the gun and now it is just enough to drag things a tiny bit. The only reason to use shims is if the hammer is rubbing on the frame, usually it is the side away from the side plate. If you're running a 15# rebound spring and a hammer fall weight over 48 ounces rubbing on the frame won't cause any issues. Take the cupped shim out and don't replace it. Shoot it and see how it goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ysrracer Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 Operator error Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdog02 Posted February 20 Author Share Posted February 20 2 hours ago, ysrracer said: Operator error I think you are partially correct. Went to the range with a bunch of Federal and PMC ammo to test. Installed the cupped shim on the outside before testing and after 50 or so rounds I was able to mimic the "issue" seen in the video. Now I am not sure entirely how these play together but here goes: I THINK the cupped shim, is somehow impeding the hammer fall but only randomly. If I (user error) pull the trigger fast back to the cylinder locking wall that created the click that is heard on the video and the drag on the hammer makes it feel like the hammer has fallen when it is just on the razor edge of going, so I instinctively stat moving the gun - feeling like the hammer has fallen but it has not quite went or is going. This is all speculation on how things are interacting inside the gun with my finger helping cause the problems. Gun ran perfect last year so when I did my break down and clean after the season - i pinched or bent the outward side shim, which just sat there til the past month when matches started back up again. Long story short: hammer impedance coupled with poor trigger pull through can compound each other and cause problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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